Another Class Switch Thread

[giganutz]

What is the rough strategy here? Get the initial class to level 10 or so, then switch? Then once you hit 10 again, switch again? Or don't bother with a second switch? I switched classes for a few characters around level 6 and it feels like a mistake. Thanks.

[Wizardsmana]

Personally, I always liked playing single classed players in this game as they dominated most encounters past 13th level. Some of my friends in the 80's had characters that switched class and played them well like a 13th level mage going fighter. But even then they had less over all spell points (not straight 9's) and not straight 18 stats usually making them slower. But then again, having a party in which most if not all characters can cast spells instead of just the back row can be very powerful and give you more options in combat.

Anyway, no style is wrong or even better though. Just like D&D multiplayer chars sacrifice dominance in a class for more options in combat. A party of mostly or all multi class chars can be very powerful if played right. But I prefer a party in which each party member has a job and they are the best at doing it... FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT, DISARM TRAPS, HEAL/PROTECT, BLAST THEM TO OBLIVION!

[Ninth Hour]

Originally posted by giganutz:

What is the rough strategy here? Get the initial class to level 10 or so, then switch? Then once you hit 10 again, switch again? Or don't bother with a second switch? I switched classes for a few characters around level 6 and it feels like a mistake. Thanks.

Warning, wall of text:

There is no rough strategy. It really depends on what you want to accomplish. Strictly speaking, there is no need to switch classes to win the game. In fact, doing so imposes a major penalty, as your stats are reset to the racial minimum, which then handicaps you until you can regain them through multiple level-ups. Also, if you're a spellcasting class, the number of spell slots you have per spell level gets reset to the number of spells available at that level (e.g. Mages have 4 different level 1 spells, so the level 1 spell slot gets set to 4. Priests have 5 different level 1 spells, so the level 1 spell slot gets set to 5. So if you originally had 9 level 1 spells slots, you lose at least half of them).

Therefore, unless there is a specific build or goal you have in mind, it is actually disadvantageous to switch. Single class characters can advance more quickly than hybrids and become powerful much sooner.

Here are some reasons why one might go through the trouble:

(1) To obtain a Lord : the maximum number of Attribute points you can roll on character creation is 29. This will not be enough to build a Lord from the start but you can, after multiple level ups, gain the requisite stats to switch.

Even then, it is not necessarily a good idea to switch to a Lord just because you can, as it will advance in level more slowly than a Fighter and gains Priest spells at a very slow rate. So for much of the game, you're better off just sticking with a Fighter for combat and a Priest for Divine spells.

However, once you have advanced items, like the Garb of Lords (special armor for that character) and decent weapons, like +2 Longsword or- better- a Vorpal Blade, then there is now a reason to include one. Even then, you will have to find a place to grind your Level 1 Lord all the way to at least level 12 or 13, so that he/she will actually be useful. I have several posts on grinding methods that you can reference if necessary.

Personally, I waited until I had a level 13 Mage and all the aforementioned items, before switching that character to a Lord (see #6 below for explanation).


(2) To obtain a Samurai: everything I said about the Lord applies to the Samurai, although you can actually start with a Samurai if you roll well on character creation. However, just as with the Lord, you don't necessarily want to build one just because you can, as it will advance more slowly than either a Fighter or Mage.

It is only when you get the Muramasa's Blade (best weapon in the game, that can only be used by Samurai) that it becomes worth converting one of your characters (or creating one from scratch).


(3) To obtain a Ninja: as with the Lord, Ninja have such high Attribute requirements that you can't build one out of the gate. You have to gain many levels before you can switch. And when you do, you end up with a level 1 weakling that you have to grind back to decent stats. Your mileage may vary as to whether all this work is worth it. Ninjas are a nice novelty but I personally only built one after I beat Werdna several times. At that point, it was just for fun rather than because I really needed one.

Ninja are unique in that there is an item (Thieves Dagger) that allows you to convert a Thief of any alignment to that class, without losing any stats. But your ability to detect traps accurately decreases in exchange for the extra attacks of the Ninja and the ability to inflict critical hits. Again, it is up to personal preference as to whether that trade-off is worth it. In any case, it will likely be a very long time before you can even find this item.


(4) To build hardy mages: some people will level their Fighters to the point that they have 100+ HP (which would be somewhere between level 9 to 11, depending on RNG or save scumming) and then switch to a Mage. Even though that Mage will now only be able to get 1 HP per level (as their current hitpoints far exceeds what they will ever gain naturally), they will still be a Mage with over 100 HP, when normally they might have just 50 to 70 by level 13. Even at level 25 or 26, a mage built with no other classes will typically have HP in the low 100's (assuming they roll well). With a Fighter base, it will have around 50 to 60 more HP than usual:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3275806352&fileuploadsuccess=1


(5) To build versatile spellcasters: for both Priests and Mages, it is at Level 13 that they learn their highest spell levels. If you want to have spellcasters that can cast both Arcane and Priest spells at their highest levels, the fastest way to do this is as follows:

Convert level 13 Mage to level 13 Priest: Mage spells get reset to default spell slots of 4/2/2/3/3/4/3 and will never advance but Priest spells will advance fully.

Convert level 13 Priest to level 13 Mage: Priest spells get reset to default spell slots of 5/4/4/4/6/4/2 and will never advance but Mage spells will advance fully.

Note that these methods are faster for gaining all spells than leveling a Bishop, who needs to be level 28 or 29 before it can accomplish that and requires much more XP than going from level 13 Priest to level 13 Mage or vice versa. Unlike the aforementioned hybrids, Bishops can, in theory, gain 9 in every single Arcane and Divine spell slot, but would have to reach level 38 before that happens.


(6) To build versatile "spellswords": some people (like myself) like the idea of having a character that can fight and cast the entire range of Arcane and Divine spells,

To that end, the following are common strategies:

Convert level 13 Mage to Lord: the Lord will, from level 1, be able to cast the full range of Mage spells, although their spell slots are reduced to 4/2/2/3/3/4/3 and will never advance. Eventually, they will also gain Priest spells. By level 22, a Lord will be able to cast level 7 Priest spells. And by level 28+, they will have 9's in all Priest spell slots,

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3275791944&fileuploadsuccess=1

Convert level 13 Priest to Samurai: same concept. Samurai will start with full range of Priest spells but spell slots are reduced to 5/4/4/4/6/4/2 and will never advance. But they will gain Mage spells, By level 22+, they can cast level 7 Arcane spells and by level 30+ they will have 9's in all Arcane spell slots.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3275785546

(just ignore the Race and Portrait mismatch. Tomoe, 巴 御前 村正, is a human raised by dwarves, like Cattie-Brie from R.A. Salvatore's novels, who later rediscovered her cultural heritage)

Convert level 13 Mage to level 13 Priest (or vice versa) and then to Ninja (alternatively, you can go level 28+ Bishop to Ninja): this will produce a Ninja that can cast all levels of Arcane and Divine spells, although spell slots will be reduced to the following and will never advance:

Arcane; 4/2/2/3/3/4/3
Divine: 5/4/4/4/6/4/2


https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3275803043&fileuploadsuccess=1

(Here, we also see the detrimental effects of class switching!)

If you're not that ambitious, you can simply convert level 13+ Mage to Fighter/Ninja or level 13+ Priest to Fighter/Ninja, depending on which type of spells you want your Fighter or Ninja to cast.

Obviously, this is only something you would do if you intend to invest a significant amount of time in the game. If you just want to beat Werdna as quickly as possible, don't do this.

Note that, on reaching level 13 Mage or Priest, you are not guaranteed to learn all level 7 spells. If you're unlucky, you may learn only one and it may not be the one you want - e.g. if you are a mage, you may get Mahaman rather than Malor or Tiltowait. However, you will learn the rest of the spells as you level up in your new class (even if it is one that would not normally give you Mage spells).

Of course, if you don't like the idea of starting your new class without a specific level 7 spell, like Tiltowait, you can save scum your level 13 mage/priest to learn all the spells of that level, before switching.

P.S. Sorry for the blurred image quality. I hadn't realized that Snipping Tool would give the pictures such a faded look

[giganutz]

Wow! Thanks for the detailed analysis and examples. It sounds like class change gives variety but is not "required" to beat the game. I guess it is akin to multi-classing in DnD which always seemed to make things harder but added flavor.

[Ninth Hour]

Originally posted by giganutz:

I guess it is akin to multi-classing in DnD which always seemed to make things harder but added flavor.

Yes, that's how I would view it. Sticking with single class characters is eminently practical and effective but kind of boring, while multi-classing is an inefficient way to build power but offers variety and the "cool" factor.

This idea is especially true in this game, which actively discourages you from switching classes. You really need to have an interesting idea for which you are willing to sacrifice time and the pace of character progression.

I therefore view all the "elite" classes and other class switch concepts (other than Fighter to Mage, which doesn't take long to implement) as "extra content"- something to explore after beating the game once with your core group of single-classed characters.

On othe other hand, there's nothing stopping you from building a Lord or Samurai or Ninja for your first attempt at Werdna, if you happen to luck out on the right items.

In fact, if you grind the Floor 7 Fire Dragon, you have a good chance of obtaining the high tier items for those elite classes, so being able to include them in your first successful party isn't necessarily out of the question.

Grinding the Fire Dragon

Once you are comfortable in your ability to beat Werdna, you can even consider farming his amulet for XP, so that your builds can really take off (at that point, you're effectively playing "New Game Plus"):

Farming Werdna's Amulet