How does leveling up work?

[General Jah]

Hello I am new to the game and my party has gotten to level three. I am finding the level up system very opaque and am hoping someone can shed some light onto the mechanics. I have two different fighters for example one of them gained 10 hit points on a level up and the other only gained 1. Is the RNG really this wide? They both have similar stats in terms of vit etc.

The other puzzling component is what do mages get when they level up. I had one of my characters get three different stack points upon level up while another one only got one.

If there is some resource you can point me to that explains this that would be really helpful as well, thank you!

[Ninth Hour]

Everything you would want to know about the game's mechanics is explained in this much referenced website:

https://datadrivengamer.blogspot.com/2019/08/the-not-so-basic-mechanics-of-wizardry.html

Here's the relevant section regarding HP gains:

"Whenever you level up, your maxHP is essentially re-rolled.
Fighters and lords roll d10’s.
Priests and samurai roll d8’s.
Thieves, bishops, and ninjas roll d6’s.
Mages roll d4’s.

Each class rolls once per level, except for Samurai, who roll one additional time (e.g. a level 5 samurai rolls 6 times). Each roll is further modified by the character’s vitality.

So, for example, if a Thief reaches level 12, and has vitality of 18, this means rolling 1d6 +3 twelve times and summing the results. We would expect an average sum of 78. This sum becomes the thief’s new HP, provided it’s bigger than the previous value.

If the new HP value is not greater than it was before levelling up, then the result is discarded and you just gain 1 HP.

Because maxHP is recalculated on each level up, and it can’t go down, it trends toward the high end of what’s possible for your class. This is also why HP gains are slow after switching classes; your HP is higher than it “should” be for your new class at low levels, so your HP won’t grow until you’re a high enough level that you “should” be gaining again."

[Ninth Hour]

In short, unlike other RPG's, you don't roll for HP only for the level you gained but your entire HP pool is rerolled every time you level.

So if you rolled high on a previous level, you will already have exceeded your "average" expected HP pool and will only gain 1 HP.

A good way to predict whether or not you will have a large or small HP gain on your next level up is to see where your current HP total is and compare it to the "average" for your class and level.

For example: a Fighter with Vitality of 18 (which gives you +3 HP per level) will, on average, have 8 to 9 HP per level.

This is because the roll for HP per level would be 1D10+3 = 4 to 13. To get the average of this range, you add 4 and 13 and divide by 2= 8.5.

Therefore the average HP of a level 5 Fighter would be 5 x 8.5= 42.5 (i.e. 42 or 43 depending on whether you prefer to round up or down)

Suppose, however, that you had very lucky rolls in previous levels and ended up with an HP of 60 at level 5 (i.e. you rolled mostly 9's or 10's). Chances are good that, on your advancement to level 6, you will gain only 1 HP, as it is unlikely that you will roll high enough to "beat" your previous total.

A level 6 Fighter with Vitality 18 can have a theoretical maximum of 13 x 6= 78 HP. But you would have to roll 10's on every level to get that value, the odds of which are extremely small.

The average HP value for that level 6 Fighter, in contrast, would be 8.5 x 6= 51,

So, in theory, your HP could go from 60 to 78, when you reach level 6, if the reroll gives you six 10's in a row. But that is highly improbable, even with a lot of savescumming. Most of the time, RNG will result in a number closer to 51, and your value of 60 already beats it, which means that you shouldn't be gaining any more HP, but you still get +1 HP as a "consolation prize".

Conversely, if you were unlucky and rolled really low in previous levels, chances are good that you will suddenly gain a huge amount of HP .

For example, if your level 5 Fighter had a lot of crummy HP rolls (i.e. below a 5) on previous levels, and ended up only with an HP of 30, chances are very good for a huge bump. For example, say that your rerolled HP on level 6 had more average values and ends up around 54. Your HP will now move up to that new total and the level up screen will say that you gained 24 HP.

Clear as mud?

[General Jah]

ah very helpful, thank you guys!

[General Jah]

Maybe I am wrong but it seems like Vit and Str are everything for a front line character and every character really needs Vit? Also for casters its really all about their main stat and maybe some vit?

[jvincentnix]

Originally posted by General Jah:

Maybe I am wrong but it seems like Vit and Str are everything for a front line character and every character really needs Vit? Also for casters its really all about their main stat and maybe some vit?

I'm not "official" but yes sir, Vitality seems to be the stat to increase in my experience.

[General Jah]

One thing that link above doesn't discuss is how are Attributes points earned upon level up?

[Ninth Hour]

Everyone needs Vitality for high HP and Agility for improved initiative i combat. If your entire party has Agility 18, you will almost always act before the majority of the enemies, which can make a big difference for survival.

Ideally, you want to max out the main stat of your class as well Vitality during character creation and then spend your level up points on Agility.

[Ninth Hour]

Originally posted by General Jah:

One thing that link above doesn't discuss is how are Attributes points earned upon level up?

In the original Apple II game, all stats have a chance to randomly increase or decrease by 1, on level up. If you're lucky, you can get +1 to all 6 stats. But more often, you'll have a mix of some stats going down by 1 and others going up by 1.

Yes, it's a fickle system that doesn't feel very good, but that's old school for you.

But if you choose the default option for this version (Point Buy), you randomly get 1 to 3 attribute points per level to distribute as you see fit. You can even put more than 1 point into the same stat, which was not something possible in the original game (in which stats only went up by 1 and you had no control which one increased).