Guide: Beating new Wizardry with old school rules

[Dogf]

After reading quite a few posts about the game's difficulty under "old school" settings, I decided to throw together a few notes on how I play and post them, hoping that someone at least would find them helpful. I found myself writing more than I expected. And then I wrote more... and more... pretty soon I found myself writing a guide.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3198307988

The guide is aimed at new(ish) and intermediate players who want to try beating the game in all its original hardcore glory. That is:

• Surprise round casting on
  
• No restoring from save files

The guide goes from character creation through to beating Werdna. A reasonable amount of familiarity with the game is assumed - it doesn't go into any real basics.

Short version:

• Fighter, fighter, priest, thief, mage, mage. Samurai are a waste of time if you just want to win. Create a bishop, but leave them at home.
  
• Maze level 1 until Mahalito. Level 2 until Dalto / Maporfic. Level 3 until Makanito. Level 4 until Zilwan / Madi / Mabadi.
  
• Skip maze levels 5-7. Level 8 until Malor / Tiltowait. Skip level 9.
  
• Win quickly one you reach maze level 10. Don't farm for gear - your level 8 crap is sufficient. You are racing against statistics that say you will eventually be surprised and wiped.

The long version is much... longer. It goes into a lot of detail about progression and encounters. Comments and suggestions welcome. Hope it helps someone!

[Zatarra]

"You are racing against statistics that say you will eventually be surprised and wiped."

This is a strong fact.

[Dogf]

Originally posted by Zatarra:

"You are racing against statistics that say you will eventually be surprised and wiped."

This is a strong fact.

Yep. As a fresh level 13 party starting maze level 10, you have about a 2%, or 1 in 50, chance of being surprised by an extinction level group of monsters every encounter.

Doesn't sound like much, but you want to roll those dice as few times as possible. So dilly-dallying around farming for better gear and levels on level 10 is a false economy. It actually reduces your chances of winning without a wipe. Not only that, but you'll lose all your gear when you win anyway. Better to get that out of the way sooner rather than later.

Go for Werdna's jugular early. Farm until your eyes bleed later.

[Abscondrel]

i stand by putting thief in front row. casting wins, spells win. the front row is a hedge.
i've got 40 or so years of wiz xp in pocket.

[VoidEngineer]

I beat Wizardry 20+ years ago, but as a modern gamer I have zero interest in playing with mechanics that can just utterly wipe my party with zero chance of survival. I will be playing with surprise round casting OFF.

[Stefan_Marley]

Originally posted by abscondrel:

i stand by putting thief in front row. casting wins, spells win. the front row is a hedge.
i've got 40 or so years of wiz xp in pocket.

Seconded. I also put my thief in the front row (even before the new hide mechanic) and hope for a Thieve's Dagger to turn him into a Ninja at some point. Late game is all about mass damage pyroytechnics.

[Abscondrel]

Originally posted by Dogf:

• Fighter, fighter, priest, thief, mage, mage.

i decided to explain why this is a problem. let's start with the front row. the number doesn't need to be precise, you can pick your own number. i'm going with a thief is .5 of a fighter. so a front row is 2.5 fighters. if you don't put thief in front, your front row is 2.0 fighters. 2.5 > 2.0 nothing could be simpler. a caster is not and should not be fighting, hence the designation "caster." so a caster is .0 fighters.

the next issue is 1 priest and 2 mages. that is one doctor with six patients. the office is littered with dead mages. one premise we all agree on is this game is trying to kill you. surviving is required to win. while you are using your priest heal spells you are using up your priest offensive spells. one priest offensive spell is critical to late game survival. Zilwan. it is very difficult to save a spell when you need a same-slot spell. this dilemma weighs heavy on the priest. so you take 2 priests. that makes it twice as likely that your mage will actually live. casting 2 zilwan in a round can and will save you from a wipe. casting 2 tiltowait is like shooting twice at a running deer.

there is an overlap in these 2 mistakes that creates a tidal mistake. not only do you want to have just one priest, but you want to put that one single healer under sword point in the front row. "our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death"

i'm guessing that discrepancy between the thief AC and the priest AC is creating a snag in the thinking. that minor AC discrepancy is not remotely close to a deciding factor in where they should be standing. if you got to pick who was going to die you would pick the thief and be busily exiting at that point. only then do you notice that priest AC might help get you out the door.

[Azriel Arcade]

Originally posted by abscondrel:

Originally posted by Dogf:

• Fighter, fighter, priest, thief, mage, mage.

i decided to explain why this is a problem. let's start with the front row. the number doesn't need to be precise, you can pick your own number. i'm going with a thief is .5 of a fighter. so a front row is 2.5 fighters. if you don't put thief in front, your front row is 2.0 fighters. 2.5 > 2.0 nothing could be simpler. a caster is not and should not be fighting, hence the designation "caster." so a caster is .0 fighters.

the next issue is 1 priest and 2 mages. that is one doctor with six patients. the office is littered with dead mages. one premise we all agree on is this game is trying to kill you. surviving is required to win. while you are using your priest heal spells you are using up your priest offensive spells. one priest offensive spell is critical to late game survival. Zilwan. it is very difficult to save a spell when you need a same-slot spell. this dilemma weighs heavy on the priest. so you take 2 priests. that makes it twice as likely that your mage will actually live. casting 2 zilwan in a round can and will save you from a wipe. casting 2 tiltowait is like shooting twice at a running deer.

there is an overlap in these 2 mistakes that creates a tidal mistake. not only do you want to have just one priest, but you want to put that one single healer under sword point in the front row. "our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death"

i'm guessing that discrepancy between the thief AC and the priest AC is creating a snag in the thinking. that minor AC discrepancy is not remotely close to a deciding factor in where they should be standing. if you got to pick who was going to die you would pick the thief and be busily exiting at that point. only then do you notice that priest AC might help get you out the door.

So, are you saying that the Thief and Cleric should switch positions then? Or would you have Two Priests and One Mage?

If I may say, I used this set up listed above and it worked fine with me.

I will say that the guide has one thing a bit off though, at least from my experience. You aren't going to use the Samurai for spells, but any time I made one it had a slight edge on the Warrior with a bit more health. If you can roll one, anyway.

That, and by the half way point, I class changed my Thief into a Ninja, which ended up being my 3rd point man to do physical damage better than the Cleric.

I will say, that having a Cleric in the 3rd front row isn't ideal per say, but I see the flaw in that party set up for the first half of the game anyway.

[Dogf]

Originally posted by abscondrel:

Originally posted by Dogf:

• Fighter, fighter, priest, thief, mage, mage.

i decided to explain why this is a problem. let's start with the front row. the number doesn't need to be precise, you can pick your own number. i'm going with a thief is .5 of a fighter. so a front row is 2.5 fighters. if you don't put thief in front, your front row is 2.0 fighters. 2.5 > 2.0 nothing could be simpler. a caster is not and should not be fighting, hence the designation "caster." so a caster is .0 fighters.

the next issue is 1 priest and 2 mages. that is one doctor with six patients. the office is littered with dead mages. one premise we all agree on is this game is trying to kill you. surviving is required to win. while you are using your priest heal spells you are using up your priest offensive spells. one priest offensive spell is critical to late game survival. Zilwan. it is very difficult to save a spell when you need a same-slot spell. this dilemma weighs heavy on the priest. so you take 2 priests. that makes it twice as likely that your mage will actually live. casting 2 zilwan in a round can and will save you from a wipe. casting 2 tiltowait is like shooting twice at a running deer.

So you advocate fighter, fighter, thief, priest, priest, mage? Interesting.

As you say, for me the 10-15% greater chance the thief has of being hit (compared to a priest) creates too much of an Achilles heel. Also, I don't really think of the priest as a dedicated combat caster. The only priest offensive spells I really use are Mabadi and Malikto. Mabadi is used rarely, and Malikto doesn't overlap with a healing spell, so it's not a zero sum game between offensive casting and healing. For me the priest is more of a bad fighter who can heal, but has a decent AC. I don't find myself lacking healing with just one priest - with two mages, nothing that can actually hurt you lives long enough to do so, unless it suprises you.

Maybe I'll try a thief in the front 3 next run for a challenge. Might be interesting with the new hiding ability.

Zilwan is a mage spell btw. I'm guessing you meant Mabadi? Personally I'll take the two Tiltowaits :)

[Dogf]

Originally posted by Azriel Arcade:

I will say that the guide has one thing a bit off though, at least from my experience. You aren't going to use the Samurai for spells, but any time I made one it had a slight edge on the Warrior with a bit more health. If you can roll one, anyway.

Initially yes, later no. A samurai will also be slower to get additional attacks, with the extra XP needed.

There's only one reason to make a samurai in PGotMO, and it's late (late) game.

[Abscondrel]

lorto and litoken are useful. i forgot zilwan was mage spell. that changes the argument. not enough to put priest in front. but it makes 2 mages a strong option.

[VoidEngineer]

My 3 samurai, 1 thief, 1 priest, 1 mage party is feeling pretty garbage tier after reading all this.

[Azriel Arcade]

Originally posted by VoidEngineer:

My 3 samurai, 1 thief, 1 priest, 1 mage party is feeling pretty garbage tier after reading all this.

In theory, that doesn't sound bad per say, but speaking from someone who had 2 Fighters, a Samurai, Thief, Priest, and Mage as my first ever team, it got wiped in the Monster Allocation Room.

Simply put, I disagree on Not having 2 Mages, because at least then you got two group attacking party members to take care of more powerful sets like the M.A. Room.

It's actually such a team that let me beat Werdna without reaching Level 13 with my Mages or Anyone. I don't think you have a bad team, but I think yours will have some more grinding to do overall than what I did.

Originally posted by Dogf:

Originally posted by abscondrel:

i decided to explain why this is a problem. let's start with the front row. the number doesn't need to be precise, you can pick your own number. i'm going with a thief is .5 of a fighter. so a front row is 2.5 fighters. if you don't put thief in front, your front row is 2.0 fighters. 2.5 > 2.0 nothing could be simpler. a caster is not and should not be fighting, hence the designation "caster." so a caster is .0 fighters.

the next issue is 1 priest and 2 mages. that is one doctor with six patients. the office is littered with dead mages. one premise we all agree on is this game is trying to kill you. surviving is required to win. while you are using your priest heal spells you are using up your priest offensive spells. one priest offensive spell is critical to late game survival. Zilwan. it is very difficult to save a spell when you need a same-slot spell. this dilemma weighs heavy on the priest. so you take 2 priests. that makes it twice as likely that your mage will actually live. casting 2 zilwan in a round can and will save you from a wipe. casting 2 tiltowait is like shooting twice at a running deer.

So you advocate fighter, fighter, thief, priest, priest, mage? Interesting.

As you say, for me the 10-15% greater chance the thief has of being hit (compared to a priest) creates too much of an Achilles heel. Also, I don't really think of the priest as a dedicated combat caster. The only priest offensive spells I really use are Mabadi and Malikto. Mabadi is used rarely, and Malikto doesn't overlap with a healing spell, so it's not a zero sum game between offensive casting and healing. For me the priest is more of a bad fighter who can heal, but has a decent AC. I don't find myself lacking healing with just one priest - with two mages, nothing that can actually hurt you lives long enough to do so, unless it suprises you.

Maybe I'll try a thief in the front 3 next run for a challenge. Might be interesting with the new hiding ability.

Zilwan is a mage spell btw. I'm guessing you meant Mabadi? Personally I'll take the two Tiltowaits :)

Agreed on the Two Tiltowaits, really cleared out the room for me. Although as someone who ended up in Werdna's Hall with just one of my mages and an underleveled Bishop, a single Tiltowait really did clear up the room all the same.

Then again, I have My Lord, Samurai, and Ninja on my front end at this point, and I have then take out Werdna while my Mage focuses on everyone else via Tiltowait. My Priest usually casts Prayer and then anything else to help out in the end.

[Azriel Arcade]

My Main Team via New/Custom Options/Console Floors is this...

Fighter/Lord, Samurai, Thief (in 4th Row)/Ninja (in 3rd Row), Priest (Relocated to 4th Row after Ninja Upgrade), Mage, and Mage.

Not exactly an optimized team, the Fighter/Lord being based off my D&D Paladin, but it worked really well with me. Did the Dungeon Pick Up trick for my Evil Thief and Evil Mage, I think I was gonna make one of my Mages Bishops, until I realized there's no real good point to do so, even if it's for some more AC points and some healing spells.

Even with the Options up above, I had half of my higher level party wiped out and couldn't afford to revive them for quite awhile, as I didn't want to give up on them. Made Another Fighter and Samurai, along with a Bishop because why not? Learned soon enough that other than Identifying Items, there's is No Point to use a Bishop for the spells as they learn them FAR too late (plus, even if DE puts in Scenarios II - V as DLC, I doubt a Bishop would still be all that useful for an Endgame Fight).

My Original Options/Original Floors Planned Team is this...

Fighter/Bishop, Samurai, Priest/Lord, Thief/Ninja, Mage/Priest, Mage

So, I know that first option is pretty weird and is more likely not very optimal, but the idea behind it is that I hopefully won't need to replace anyone (which probably won't happen).

That, and I intend in that go around to actually change up more classes than I did before, if I do that run I'll let you guys know how it went.