Shouldn’t have to mod to make the combat better

[TapewormJim (TJ)]

So far, I like the story. Think the game has a lot of potential.

The combat, however, is very bad. It’s better than TW3, but that isn’t exactly a compliment.

I've had to use a number of mods to try and 'fix' the issues.

My observations so far:

Potions

No incentive to buy them or take them seriously, since you can just die and have them fully restocked for free. Why charge for them then? Why not just have them ‘refill’ in the style of a souls-like?

The boss battles have checkpoints but if you die after checkpoint two, for example, they just refill the potions, completely undermining any sense of achievement throughout the fight. Aka, why not just die at every checkpoint to refill the potions?

They should only be refilled to whatever you had ‘saved’ at checkpoint two, for example, before you die.

Stagger

Wow, how bad is this? At least in Rebirth you’ve numerous options - limits, abilities, synergies etc to actually make this mechanic meaningful.

Here you are essentially just banging on the basic attack button (if you’ve spent your cooldown ability) and that’s it.

Mindless?

Cooldowns

On that note, there’s a mod that reduces the cooldowns. Yeah they go on way too long. They need a 50% reduction.

Again, why the need to mod to fix the mechanic?

Just look up what the modders are doing, because they are simply better at understanding what is wrong with this never-play-tested combat.

Basic enemies never attack

There’s another combat mod which just increases their likelihood to actually attack. You could actually just watch them for what seems like 10 seconds without doing anything - and they’ll do nothing either.

Parry

It’s a great ‘modern mechanic’ but does it even work in this game?

I had to look up the notes and I see it’s ‘press X when the enemy goes for the attack’.

Well I’ve tried it with the ‘never attack enemies’ because it’s so easy to use them as target practice.

Absolutely never got this to work. Tried waiting just before the hit connects. Tried doing it as they seem to be winding up for the strike.

The evade mechanic does work. And it is enjoyable. But the parry mechanic just seems to be ‘potluck’ = why would you risk standing still waiting for the attack, when there seems to be no pattern in how you can parry it?

Bullet Sponges

Wow, Jesus. It only became really obvious lately during the Benedikta fight, which seemed to never bloody end. The ‘magic ability’ in particular was a joke. You could press that all day and you’d still be fighting her and have maybe reduced 1% of her health.

But every other attack seemed to do absolutely nothing.

You’d die of boredom during these fights. I mean that literally, as you will eventually start to become so bored that you’ll stop concentrating on what’s happening and start mashing buttons in the hopes of brute-force ending the interminable repetition.

Then there was a wyvern thing after this fight - a basic enemy, seemingly - and by god I thought I’d never see the end of it.

I’d say the same of those cheap flame-throwing assassin mfs.

They’re actually a decent challenge except their massive health pools plus that cheap ass flamethrower attack. It just arrives out of nowhere.

After the 4th one of these dudes, I was ready to just quit.

‘Here we go again for 5 minutes of the same mechanics’.

QTEs

Are just ludicrously simple???

Is there even a way to fail them?

I mean you could make a coffee and come back and you’d still have a chance to ‘press X’ and win the thing.

There isn’t even a penalty for pressing the wrong button. Which I’ve tried just to see if this gimmick has any point whatsoever.

It’s a joke. I’m not exactly a fan of them but they were good in Rebirth, if even then a little too easy.

I think it’s good for the brain to have to ‘keep up’ with a moderately difficult QTE and have maybe some moderate penalty for failing it, as long as it’s reasonably complex.

Conclusion

Just reduce the boss/miniboss health and decrease the ability cooldowns. And make basic enemies actually attack - as in, increase their chance of doing so by at least 100%.

Allow for some skill-based mechanic to ‘kick in’ during the stagger event, so you actually have to think or do something other than mash the attack button.

Potions need a massive rethink. The refill mechanic is the laziest thought out thing I’ve ever come across in all my ‘gaming life’.

Just such a lazy, lazy, lazy idea.

There’s no thought in making it seem fair or rewarding. Just some idiot decided ‘well whenever they die, just restock all of it’.

And that was the 1-point Jira ticket closed on that one, because they’d otherwise have to actually create a spike and do some testing to see if this actually makes any sense in terms of entertainment.

The combat is really spoiling this game for me, which is otherwise very good in the storytelling, if not exactly stellar.

It had a strong start and I thought it might even be better than Rebirth.

No, it’s definitely not.

But some simple tweaks might help it out.

[Syraniss]

This is probably bait but 90% of the answer is "git gud" and the other 10% is get further into the game so you unlock more mechanics.

Potions Refilling - Accesibility mechanic that also minimizes softlocking. Even bad players can eventually retry their way to victory. I never even noticed they refill when using retry because they were always full and I barely used them but I like that they do this for other players.

Stagger/Cooldown - These link together, it's a balance of how much cooldowns you want to use to trigger stagger and how much you want to use to push damage after a stagger. The cooldowns feel a bit slow early game where you are but that's just because you have so few, you unlock more skills later and are meant to use them and cycle through to others while they are cooling down.

Basic Enemies - These are quick fodder for beating up, they are not meant to be a major threat. Did you ever play the Batman Arkham games or Assassin Creed? This is very common in games with this combat style. It's just meant to be little bits of damage here and there to potentially tax your resources early while you learn and eventually ramp up as they are included in the background of fights with harder monsters later.

Parry - Works great, this is very much a "git gud" issue. Watch some high level gameplay and see how people are able to parry many attacks absolutely shredding bosses.

Bullet Sponges - On normal difficulty I think bosses die too fast once get used to the game. It's not uncommon to push enemies too quickly through phases and not even see half their attacks if you stay on the offense and burn them down. I'd love to have a little more time to enjoy the beauty of the music.

QTE - I hate QTE in most games, but here it is much better as they use specific buttons for specific types of events and preempt the request with flashes of color so you know it's coming. You absolutely can fail them, hitting the wrong button does fail it once different types of QTEs are introduced, they are still pretty easy but I feel like they are meant to just give you a small bit of interaction while you watch awesome cutscenes so you still feel involved, for the large part they are not meant to add to the challenge they are meant to be a reward.

Conclusion - This reminds me a lot of the kind of complaints people had when Sekiro came out. The game is meant to be played a specific way and if you don't play it that way everything feels bad and wrong. This may just not be the game for you or you may just need more time with it that's up to you. If you like the story you can always lower the difficulty down and enjoy a simpler experience.

[TapewormJim (TJ)]

Publicado originalmente por Syraniss:

This is probably bait but 90% of the answer is "git gud" and the other 10% is get further into the game so you unlock more mechanics.

Your stock 'shoot from the hip' opener says everything I need to know about how the rest will follow, but let's see what you've got.

You're also asking me to 'git gud' when almost the entire argument I presented is to make the game harder. You tell me what I'm missing there re: 'actually make the game difficult as opposed to a mainstream dumbed-down walk in the park'. Does the more 'on the nose' summary assist your understanding of what I'm presenting?

Publicado originalmente por Syraniss:

Potions Refilling - Accesibility mechanic that also minimizes softlocking. Even bad players can eventually retry their way to victory. I never even noticed they refill when using retry because they were always full and I barely used them but I like that they do this for other players.

So it's an accessibility mechanic that you're forced to accept even if you don't have the need for the 'accessibility': gotcha. They're missing an option in the conifg then to turn it off, as it very clearly makes a joke of ever having to buy or hunt down these potions, since you can just die and they'll all be returned for free.

Is the logic there still 'bait' or do you want to try again?

Publicado originalmente por Syraniss:

Stagger/Cooldown - These link together, it's a balance of how much cooldowns you want to use to trigger stagger and how much you want to use to push damage after a stagger. The cooldowns feel a bit slow early game where you are but that's just because you have so few, you unlock more skills later and are meant to use them and cycle through to others while they are cooling down.

So you've only confirmed there's an issue with the cooldowns in that if you 'use them up', you have no other strategy but to mash the attack button. Because the game's combat mechanics are so simplistic and inane that a cooldown ability is your only means to get some utility from the stagger.

I mentioned a superior and more intelligent system from their own products: Rebirth, which gives you dozens of options to make use of the stagger. This game just gives you one.

Aka, it's a bad idea.

Publicado originalmente por Syraniss:

Basic Enemies - These are quick fodder for beating up, they are not meant to be a major threat. Did you ever play the Batman Arkham games or Assassin Creed? This is very common in games with this combat style. It's just meant to be little bits of damage here and there to potentially tax your resources early while you learn and eventually ramp up as they are included in the background of fights with harder monsters later.

I played one Assassins Creed - Origins. No way were those basic enemies 'cannon fodder'. You had to actually think out your approach or you'd be slaughtered. They most definitely did not stand there and wait for you to attack.

I have never seen an action game like this, where basic enemies simply just stand or fly around and do nothing. The fact that there's a whole mod to address this should explain everything here - modders do not create mods unless there's a problem to fix.

They fixed the problem by making the enemies more aggressive. The FF16 devs should take note from people with more skill than they have re: the design of these boring AF encounters.

Publicado originalmente por Syraniss:

Parry - Works great, this is very much a "git gud" issue. Watch some high level gameplay and see how people are able to parry many attacks absolutely shredding bosses.

I'll certainly make a video and you can tell me how it's 'working'.

I've played many games with a parry system, from No Rest for The Wicked to Ghost of T.

The system simply works as you'd expect in those games. So far, it does not work as you'd expect here. But again, video evidence on the way.

Publicado originalmente por Syraniss:

Bullet Sponges - On normal difficulty I think bosses die too fast once get used to the game. It's not uncommon to push enemies too quickly through phases and not even see half their attacks if you stay on the offense and burn them down. I'd love to have a little more time to enjoy the beauty of the music.

Video evidence?

Complete and utter rubbish.

I'm level 19 now and just fought an interminable bull-like monster. This fight just kept going on and on.

I'll make video and you can tell me what I'm doing wrong. I even looked up a 'build' (magic burst, charge attack etc).

It's a laugh.

Post your evidence because it's nonsense. The game's combat is simplistic to the point there are limited strategies. Gear upgrade is banal. You basically just always have the 'best gear' by visiting the local shop.

So you're implying you have some magic ability to reduce the tedium of the bullet sponges, yet you don't qualify how you did with stats/gear/abilities.

And crucially no video. Let's see the evidence buddy.

Publicado originalmente por Syraniss:

QTE - I hate QTE in most games, but here it is much better as they use specific buttons for specific types of events and preempt the request with flashes of color so you know it's coming. You absolutely can fail them, hitting the wrong button does fail it once different types of QTEs are introduced, they are still pretty easy but I feel like they are meant to just give you a small bit of interaction while you watch awesome cutscenes so you still feel involved, for the large part they are not meant to add to the challenge they are meant to be a reward.

Is this guy an employee of the company?

Starting to think so.

The QTEs are 'press x' or 'press RT'...while giving you what seems like at least 5 seconds to compute the instruction.

That's not a QTE and there's no way to fail something that basic.

The piano QTE in Rebirth IMO is a very good complex QTE sequence that gives you mere milliseconds to address a bombardment of QTEs, to include multitasking on both left and right controls.

You may not like them, but it's an impressive test of the brain's ability to 'keep pace' and is therefore healthy for your brain.

This is just the easiest dumbest possible QTE you can image.

Publicado originalmente por Syraniss:

Conclusion - This reminds me a lot of the kind of complaints people had when Sekiro came out. The game is meant to be played a specific way and if you don't play it that way everything feels bad and wrong. This may just not be the game for you or you may just need more time with it that's up to you. If you like the story you can always lower the difficulty down and enjoy a simpler experience.

Mate, the whole request was to up the difficulty. Don't know how you keep missing that but read back over it.

You've only got the 'bullet sponge' complaint to lean back on if you think I'm saying it's too difficult - unfortunately, you can't die from a bullet sponge, but can be bored to death.

There is no difficulty in this mindless action game. It's banal to the point of being sheep-level mindless.

I'm not a fan of action games in general but the only one I could say was intelligent was one of the old Ninja Gaiden games, from way back in the PS3 era (forgot the name).

That required brutally efficient reflexes and gave you an abundance of different moves to at least employ creative thinking to overcome the odds.

Here there is no opportunity for that, because it is a franchise that previously specialised in, and did well with, turn-based games. Then tried to make an action game and ended up so simple and mindless that it seems to be have been dashed off in 5 minutes.

[TapewormJim (TJ)]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gPpYcykW44
Video of taking on a regular bull-type enemy - actually took 2.5min to kill... Incredible.

There is is no difficulty here. I multiple times got struck at the start and there was barely a scratch.

I tried to employ every single available 'move' that the games offers, outside the - IMO - broken parry.

I used the 'magic burst' combo. I used the fire uppercut (or whatever it's called) and then switched to the other green cooldown ability. I used the precision dodge + counter multiple times. I used the 'charge up' magic power and the 'charge up' attack power.

I used every bloody thing I can possibly think of.

None of the variations made any noticeable difference in the damage output. In fact, the charge up attack barely did more than a basic attack/magic burst combo - in fact, probably did less...and took more time to deliver.

This is nonsense for a regular enemy. There are bosses in POE2 that, should they go on for 2 and half minutes, are something you'd consider a slog.

This is a basic enemy.

Once you've dodged one of it's repetitive attacks once or twice, are you really achieving anything by having done so for the 10th time?

[Archduke obvious]

You need to use your cooldown attacks more. At this point you have 2 red attacks and 2 green ones. In the video I only saw you using 1 red and 1 green attack. All the attacks deal great damage, so you should be using all of them and often.

The highest damage comes from using your cooldowns smartly. Enemies take extra damage when staggered, and the more you hit them the more damage they take, up to 150%. Time your cooldowns so that they become available when you have the guy staggered.

Your normal attacks deal less damage, but they're still important. Use the normal attack combo to keep dealing damage between cooldowns. Use the fireballs if you can't get close to the enemy. The charge attacks are nice because you can charge no matter what you're doing. This means that if you're dodging, or jumping, or attacking, or anything you can still be charging. If you learn how to use it properly you can have a charge attack ready whenever, doing a full combos worth of damage in 1 hit. I like to start charging while I'm dodging, that way when I finish the dodge I'm ready to attack with a fully charge.

[qsdww]

Stop use Dodge and try to practice Parry, I spent a long time in Hall of Virtue just doing Parry for fun :D.

[$OULJA $TRIFE]

You don’t use precision sick, no stinger, no aerial combos, you sparingly use your skills, barely any charged blade cancels, always missing precision dodge, never playing with the enemies Moveset (parrying or dodging at the right time) and then complain about the combat

Either action games aren’t your forte or ur a troll, regardless this games combat is the best the series has ever had, you’re vastly under utilising the stomp move, aerial cancels, torgal, when to use skills (some do more stagger bar damage and others do more HP damage so yes there is a way to melt the bar quicker it’s not just “attack”)

The only mod this game “needs” for its combat is the one that allows you to start with all abilities from the jump as well as the harder difficulty access from the start you’d have to be really pretentious to claim that “cooldown” is a terrible mechanic when this games combat has a literally dedicated community to combo videos lol.

[Syraniss]

I hate to say it but that video basically proves the point. Each stance has 2 skills, you only used 6 in the whole fight. Stance 1 skill 1 was used 4 times and stance 2 skill 1 was used twice, the second skills for each were not used a single time.

You were using Garuda's abilities on the enemy in the stagger phase and Phoenix's abilities in the active phase, this is backwards from what would typically be optimal. Garuda does more will damage than HP damage. Phoenix is much more balanced between the two.

You did not restrain the enemy with Garuda's utility ability either time you got it's will to half. While not quite as long as a full stagger this is a huge bonus as it drains the second half of their will very quickly or in many cases like these non boss enemies can be chained strait into a full stagger.

Only a few evades and they were generally only followed up by a single slash rather than a full combo.

Git Gud is not meant as some huge putdown it's literally what some games want of you if you want to do well and move fast. Thanks to accessibility mechanics and difficulty options there are ways for people to just enjoy the story without having to learn to get a little extra juice out of the mechanics.

[ruppe27]

I don't get the complaints about the cooldowns, they are perfectly balanced, you are supposed to use all of your other moves during cooldowns. They just lack the imagination to fight without the slotted abilities. You can do so much cool stuff without them, half of the time I even forget to use them. I mostly save them for the stagger phase.

[168cm 83kg 13cm]

Publicado originalmente por TapewormJim (TJ):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gPpYcykW44
Video of taking on a regular bull-type enemy - actually took 2.5min to kill... Incredible.

There is is no difficulty here. I multiple times got struck at the start and there was barely a scratch.

I tried to employ every single available 'move' that the games offers, outside the - IMO - broken parry.

I used the 'magic burst' combo. I used the fire uppercut (or whatever it's called) and then switched to the other green cooldown ability. I used the precision dodge + counter multiple times. I used the 'charge up' magic power and the 'charge up' attack power.

I used every bloody thing I can possibly think of.

None of the variations made any noticeable difference in the damage output. In fact, the charge up attack barely did more than a basic attack/magic burst combo - in fact, probably did less...and took more time to deliver.

This is nonsense for a regular enemy. There are bosses in POE2 that, should they go on for 2 and half minutes, are something you'd consider a slog.

This is a basic enemy.

Once you've dodged one of it's repetitive attacks once or twice, are you really achieving anything by having done so for the 10th time?

I checked your video and... LMAAAO! At first, I genuinely thought you were trying to ragebait us with how you keep mashing all the wrong buttons and blatantly ignoring even the most basic mechanics. But then I re-read your posts and realized... you might actually be serious.
I mean, wow. Your APM is so slow it’s like I’m watching a grandpa gaming from the retirement home - with arthritis. It’s absolutely hilarious how you barely move your camera and consistently miss the enemy entirely because your camera control is practically non-existent. You don’t connect a single attack properly, can’t dodge most of the time even with an absurdly generous timing window, and manage to show off some of the most cringe-worthy gameplay humanity has ever witnessed.

Half of the time, your abilities are just sitting there off cooldown because even pressing those buttons seems to exceed your skill ceiling, what "cooldowns too long" are you even talking about? Your APM is at least 3x times slower then the actual cooldowns are.
This game is aimed at complete noobs and you fail even at this. Let’s not even get started on how you completely ignore Garuda’s 50% Will mechanic - it’s like that feature doesn’t even exist in your game - and Torgal? Who's that? Just. LOOOOOL. The sheer audacity it takes to upload a video like THIS, and not feel a shred of embarrassment, speaks volumes about your confidence Forget gameplay; this is a pure abomination.

P.S. Look, if you’re over 70 years old, completely new to gaming, or on the autism spectrum, I honestly apologize. You’re doing great, and keep it up!

[168cm 83kg 13cm]

Me: too embarassed to upload my own footage because there are sweats out there pulling off insane stuff like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNXWceCz8pM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZJXxExdEWo

This guy: Complains about the game, then uploads one of the most embarrassing performances I’ve ever seen - literally painful to watch. And as if that’s not enough, he shows up on the steam forums with a giant wall of text claiming the game is too easy for him, while he can’t even grasp the most basic, noob-friendly mechanics. Dunning-Kruger effect at its absolute finest

[TapewormJim (TJ)]

Publicado originalmente por Archduke obvious:

You need to use your cooldown attacks more. At this point you have 2 red attacks and 2 green ones. In the video I only saw you using 1 red and 1 green attack. All the attacks deal great damage, so you should be using all of them and often.

Yeah I thought you had a budget of 1 cooldown per 'colour'. The UI isn't exactly a masterpiece at letting you know how many you've got left. I'll try this. I'm doubtful it'll make a significant difference given how much these large enemies seem to absorb, let's give you the benefit of the doubt.

[TapewormJim (TJ)]

Publicado originalmente por qsdww:

Stop use Dodge and try to practice Parry, I spent a long time in Hall of Virtue just doing Parry for fun :D.

It seems really bad compared to other games I've mentioned, especially GOT. I'll give the practice thing a shot and see there's even a hint of consistency to it.

[TapewormJim (TJ)]

Publicado originalmente por $OULJA $TRIFE:

You don’t use precision sick, no stinger, no aerial combos,

Anyone want to translate this to normal English and, more precisely, math. Better yet a video of what he's going on about because it's otherwise all makey up words to try and make a computer game seem somehow sophisticated.

I'm laughing here. I've lost count of the amount of 'abilities' that I used in that video. They all do the same damage.

I know what he's talking about with the aerial combo thing.

It does no more damage than the other abilities shown here. I can record another video. They guy is welcome to to do the same.

Publicado originalmente por $OULJA $TRIFE:

you sparingly use your skills,

Use them nonstop throughout mate. 'Magic burst' combo in particular, which is apparently, from what I've seen online, the thing that separates the mice from the 'men' in this boring ass combat.

Publicado originalmente por $OULJA $TRIFE:

barely any charged blade cancels,

Translation from geek speak?

Publicado originalmente por $OULJA $TRIFE:

always missing precision dodge,

0:41 - precision dodge & counter
1:07 - precision dodge & counter
1:35 - precision dodge & counter

Not going through the rest of the video, since I'm pulling off this ineffectual move roughly every 20 seconds based on the above.

As you can see from the footage. it does no more damage than any other move, or regular attack.

Publicado originalmente por $OULJA $TRIFE:

never playing with the enemies Moveset (parrying or dodging at the right time) and then complain about the combat

Read the above remark. Or better yet, actually watch the footage buddy.

Publicado originalmente por $OULJA $TRIFE:

Either action games aren’t your forte or ur a troll,

Getting angry over feedback about a computer game says you need to get out more mate and socialise a bit.

This isn't an 'action game'. It's laughable to even call it that. You think this compares to something like Ninja Gaiden?

It is mindless, badly designed combat with the same few enemies reskinned across multiple zones.

Publicado originalmente por $OULJA $TRIFE:

regardless this games combat is the best the series has ever had,

Rebirth completely and utterly crucifies this game's combat in terms of complexity. Not only are there 100 times the number of combinations/abilities, but you also have to manage 2 other characters as well.

Look at all the builds that are possible from the dozens of materia combinations.

There's no complexity to this game. It's so dumbed down, there aren't even 'status effects' to worry about. The marlboro in the opening is the most laughable variation of the thing ever created.

Bad breath will nuke an unprepared party in Rebirth.

Publicado originalmente por $OULJA $TRIFE:

Here it does some basic damage and you can even face-tank it it's so tame.
you’d have to be really pretentious to claim that “cooldown” is a terrible mechanic when this games combat has a literally dedicated community to combo videos lol.

Pretension is lecturing someone over 'nEvA uzES the RIghtz dodGEz!' when there's a whole series of evidence every 20 seconds to contradict it.

[TapewormJim (TJ)]

Publicado originalmente por Syraniss:

You were using Garuda's abilities on the enemy in the stagger phase and Phoenix's abilities in the active phase, this is backwards from what would typically be optimal. Garuda does more will damage than HP damage. Phoenix is much more balanced between the two.

Let's say you 'save up' then and keep the Phoenix ability for the stagger phase. You think if I record a video of this you'll see such a staggering difference in the math that it'll be game changing?

It won't be, because I've many times elsewhere had that Phoenix ability to hand in the stagger phase and the difference in damage output is not noticeable to me on any level.

I'll definitely bare your remarks in mind however when I get the next recording going.

Publicado originalmente por Syraniss:

You did not restrain the enemy with Garuda's utility ability either time you got it's will to half. While not quite as long as a full stagger this is a huge bonus as it drains the second half of their will very quickly or in many cases like these non boss enemies can be chained strait into a full stagger.

So you have to rely on the same gimmick then and are shoe-horned into using this one tactic to get results? There's no alternative?

Also I'll have to add this to the list of things to test out to see if there's anything more than a surface-level difference in damage.

Publicado originalmente por Syraniss:

Only a few evades and they were generally only followed up by a single slash rather than a full combo.

Math or video?

You seem to imply there'll be significant difference in the damage output. Certainly I'll be testing this (and recording it).

All of these attacks do roughly the exact same damage.

Publicado originalmente por Syraniss:

Git Gud is not meant as some huge putdown.

It's a childish inane remark used by those who are socially maladjusted and failing at the real game, which is called 'life'.

At least in that regard, you have no 'you didn't use this makey up fantasy ability' to undermine the opinion.

[TapewormJim (TJ)]

Publicado originalmente por ruppe27:

I don't get the complaints about the cooldowns, they are perfectly balanced, you are supposed to use all of your other moves during cooldowns. They just lack the imagination to fight without the slotted abilities.

As demonstrated by the video, I used every single 'other move' I had invested in.

They have no impact on the variance in damage and do not reduce the mindless bullet sponge nature of the enemy.

So you are missing the point entirely.

'Don't have the imagination' - ♥♥♥♥♥. What imagination is required here to repeat the 10 or so abilities that the game grants you, of which I used all in the video to no discernible effect?