Leviathan

[stav8]

Is it just me or does the Eikon Leviathan just make this game way too easy. You can literally put every mini and major boss into stun without taking damage with ease then unload with all the top tier powers before cycling back to the water guns.

And with groups you can literally just juggle enemies in the air and destroy them in seconds. Anyone else find Leviathan ultra easy?

[iameatingjam]

haha no I haven't played the expansions yet. But Idk, sounds kinda fun. Its not like there were many enemies that really posed a threat in the main game. Flames of rebirth pretty much fried an entire army of non-boss enemies all the way through.

[C1REX]

Leviathan is OP. His watershot are so good at staggering that you can use all other 6 slots into damage and kill bosses in a single stagger.
Plus it has the best evasion/movement.

[stav8]

Originally posted by C1REX:

Leviathan is OP. His watershot are so good at staggering that you can use all other 6 slots into damage and kill bosses in a single stagger.
Plus it has the best evasion/movement.

Literally this. And even if you don't take all the HP from the 6 slots you just jump back to water shot again and recycle. By time you've stunned them again 4 or even 5 of your abilities have recharged and you have at least 2 bars of LB.

[jordyexists]

It's very, very strong.

It's even somewhat decent for Arcade Mode/Kairos Gate for getting high scores, but obviously not as good as other options for generating points. I like to use it in conjunction with other skills (using it with Garuda's ultimate, the tornado and Bahamut's satellite just absolutely destroys groups of enemies while generating lots of points).

For point generation, the stream that explodes is great, but the shotgun does absolutely nothing for generating points unless you charge it, and that takes too long compared to other options. The shotgun is really good at doing damage/increasing the stagger damage multiplier at close range if your other abilities are on cool down, but again, there are much better options.

Considering you get it after you have every other Eikonic ability except for the other one unlocked with The Rising Tide DLC, it would have to be very strong to get any use. I didn't like it at first, because it meant taking something also extremely powerful, like Shiva's feat or Odin's feat off my bars to make room for it. It also tends to be wonky with positioning with how far the double tap dodge can move you and how slow you walk with it out. The biggest issue is that it tends to position you far from most enemies, and that makes using the non-Leviathan toolkit rougher, as most abilities in the game are around you being in melee range. The more you use it, the more you'll find it isn't just a "win" button and has a lot of subtleties that make it useful in certain situations, but certainly not all.

Wait until you unlock Ultima's Eikonic abilities if you find Leviathan's feat too strong.

[stav8]

Originally posted by jordyexists:

It's very, very strong.

It's even somewhat decent for Arcade Mode/Kairos Gate for getting high scores, but obviously not as good as other options for generating points. I like to use it in conjunction with other skills (using it with Garuda's ultimate, the tornado and Bahamut's satellite just absolutely destroys groups of enemies while generating lots of points).

For point generation, the stream that explodes is great, but the shotgun does absolutely nothing for generating points unless you charge it, and that takes too long compared to other options. The shotgun is really good at doing damage/increasing the stagger damage multiplier at close range if your other abilities are on cool down, but again, there are much better options.

Considering you get it after you have every other Eikonic ability except for the other one unlocked with The Rising Tide DLC, it would have to be very strong to get any use. I didn't like it at first, because it meant taking something also extremely powerful, like Shiva's feat or Odin's feat off my bars to make room for it. It also tends to be wonky with positioning with how far the double tap dodge can move you and how slow you walk with it out. The biggest issue is that it tends to position you far from most enemies, and that makes using the non-Leviathan toolkit rougher, as most abilities in the game are around you being in melee range. The more you use it, the more you'll find it isn't just a "win" button and has a lot of subtleties that make it useful in certain situations, but certainly not all.

Wait until you unlock Ultima's Eikonic abilities if you find Leviathan's feat too strong.

Yeah I'm making my way to Ultima's abilities as I started the second play through on final fantasy mode. When I finished the main game I was sat at 98.5 hours played, mainly because I did it all on foot and explored every single nook and cranny of the maps and cleared all trials. On this one I've skipped every cutscenes, used ambrosia wherever possible but still completing side content. In 12 additional hours played I am already at the point where you are getting into the first fight with Barnabas with the ships. I genuinely can't believe how short the game feels compared to my first run but I do understand because there is a Kojima level of cutscenes and story and lore to this game

[jordyexists]

Originally posted by stav8:

Yeah I'm making my way to Ultima's abilities as I started the second play through on final fantasy mode. When I finished the main game I was sat at 98.5 hours played, mainly because I did it all on foot and explored every single nook and cranny of the maps and cleared all trials. On this one I've skipped every cutscenes, used ambrosia wherever possible but still completing side content. In 12 additional hours played I am already at the point where you are getting into the first fight with Barnabas with the ships. I genuinely can't believe how short the game feels compared to my first run but I do understand because there is a Kojima level of cutscenes and story and lore to this game

Oh, you could have unlocked Ultima's eikonic ability set before you started NG+. I did and used some of his abilities all the way through my NG+ playthrough, although I didn't really get into using Leviathan's abilities until I was trying to get S ranks in Arcade Mode and Kairos Gate and found a guide/build online for Kairos gate that included both Leviathan's feat and Deluge.

Ultima's abilities aren't very good at generating points; they kill things too quickly for one and they don't have easy point bonuses that you can access in most/all situations.

To unlock the ability set, you need to finish The Rising Tide and all its side-quests as well as have a complete save where you've beaten Ultima. (IE: a save with the star for completion.) Then Kairos Gate and the Ultima eikonic abilities unlock. I was actually confused as to why the Kairos Gate wasn't unlocking on my first playthrough and had to scroll through these forums to find out that you can only access it by loading a complete save after you beat Ultima, which I had yet to do.

Yeah, my NG+ playthrough took a much shorter amount of time, even doing all side content, not only because I was skipping all the cut scenes but already knew where to go for everything and I spent no time at all trying to farm.

[stav8]

Originally posted by jordyexists:

Originally posted by stav8:

Yeah I'm making my way to Ultima's abilities as I started the second play through on final fantasy mode. When I finished the main game I was sat at 98.5 hours played, mainly because I did it all on foot and explored every single nook and cranny of the maps and cleared all trials. On this one I've skipped every cutscenes, used ambrosia wherever possible but still completing side content. In 12 additional hours played I am already at the point where you are getting into the first fight with Barnabas with the ships. I genuinely can't believe how short the game feels compared to my first run but I do understand because there is a Kojima level of cutscenes and story and lore to this game

Oh, you could have unlocked Ultima's eikonic ability set before you started NG+. I did and used some of his abilities all the way through my NG+ playthrough, although I didn't really get into using Leviathan's abilities until I was trying to get S ranks in Arcade Mode and Kairos Gate and found a guide/build online for Kairos gate that included both Leviathan's feat and Deluge.

Ultima's abilities aren't very good at generating points; they kill things too quickly for one and they don't have easy point bonuses that you can access in most/all situations.

To unlock the ability set, you need to finish The Rising Tide and all its side-quests as well as have a complete save where you've beaten Ultima. (IE: a save with the star for completion.) Then Kairos Gate and the Ultima eikonic abilities unlock. I was actually confused as to why the Kairos Gate wasn't unlocking on my first playthrough and had to scroll through these forums to find out that you can only access it by loading a complete save after you beat Ultima, which I had yet to do.

Yeah, my NG+ playthrough took a much shorter amount of time, even doing all side content, not only because I was skipping all the cut scenes but already knew where to go for everything and I spent no time at all trying to farm.

I didn't research it, I thought it had to be a new game + before I realised. I could have technically gone back and done it then restarted but I was already 5/6 hours into my NG+ save and just thought sod it, I also got pretty efficient at using Leviathan by then even though when I first got him I also didn't like him, however it is now my main Eikon. I have Titan and Phoenix as the other two abilities.

[jordyexists]

Titan and Phoenix are good, but Shiva, Odin, Leviathan, Garuda and Ultima outclass their feats by a lot IMO.

Titan's block feels good, but you get a better effect if you use the parry mechanic (time slow and it stops whatever attack chain the enemy is using.) It also isn't omnidirectional, like dodge, so you can get hit from behind. The timing on Titan's perfect block is a lot more forgiving than parry or other defensive abilities, though.

Shiva's perfect dodge actually freezes all enemies for a number of seconds, so while the timing required is a lot more precise than Titan, it also outclasses the block.

Phoenix was really hard to take off my bars because of the mobility it enables, but compared to the other abilities I listed, it feels weak. Odin especially is extremely powerful; level 5 Zantetsuken just obliterates enemies, hitting everything in a massive area of effect and does the most damage in the game, making saving it up for stagger situations a way to quickly delete bosses/heavy enemies.

Using the sword/Odin's eikonic abilities to charge up the Zantetsuken gauge takes some getting used to, but once you get used to it, it becomes clear why it is the last Eikonic ability set you unlock in the base game... It's just that powerful.

I can't imagine not having deadly grasp from Garuda on my bars. It has so many uses, from controlling the position of smaller enemies, to immediately launching you in the air to avoid ground attacks or start air combos on heavy enemies, to increasing the vulnerability window on large enemies when they reach 50% stagger... It is so useful in so many situations!

Given your load out, I can understand why you find Leviathan so much stronger than the alternatives!

[stav8]

Titan's block is omni-directional if you use it with the booster you get from the rising tide DLC, which I have slapped in once I got enough ability points to clear out the grid. I don't tend to use air combat, and I prefer the phoenix thrust to drag enemies out of the air. I did like Odin, however I found the ability lacking in the boss fights and it was taking longer than using Bahamut's ability of megaflare charge, Titanic counter with raging fists/Garuda Gouge to get them staggered then unleasing Megaflare/Flames of rebirth on them so I dropped Odin out pretty quickly tbf. For smaller groups though he is OP.

[jordyexists]

Originally posted by stav8:

Titan's block is omni-directional if you use it with the booster you get from the rising tide DLC, which I have slapped in once I got enough ability points to clear out the grid. I don't tend to use air combat, and I prefer the phoenix thrust to drag enemies out of the air. I did like Odin, however I found the ability lacking in the boss fights and it was taking longer than using Bahamut's ability of megaflare charge, Titanic counter with raging fists/Garuda Gouge to get them staggered then unleasing Megaflare/Flames of rebirth on them so I dropped Odin out pretty quickly tbf. For smaller groups though he is OP.

Using Odin's ultimate ability, Dancing Steel, is a way to get charges really, really fast. Without taking up a trinket slot it will generally get to well into level 4 on just one use, if not level 5 if it hits multiple enemies at once. With the trinket, it will always full charge to level 5.
Dancing Steel also pauses time for the enemies but allows your other abilities to recharge at their normal rate, making it an exceptionally powerful ability. Sure, it sucks for damage/will damage, but that is completely mitigated by the fact that it is enabling you to use Zantetsuken at level 5 with ease. The only downside is the almost 3 second charge up of it that you can be knocked out of; that makes using it with abilities like Impulse, Shiva's perfect dodge, after a parry, after you use deadly grasp on a heavy enemy at 50% stagger, etc the best sort of scenario for using it instead of throwing it out whenever you can.
You can also get a lot of charge by using the sword and perfect dodging into counter attack or parrying. Parrying gives about a full level of charge, and is actually easier to do with Odin's sword because of its range and active frames.
I mostly used Zantetsuken during stagger, not as an AOE wipe on small enemies. Keep in mind that the gauge doesn't deplete after combat or even after changing zones or going through long cut-scenes, so you can charge it up with ease and just hold onto it until you need it.
Bahamut I liked, but it does take too long to charge unless you're constantly dodging things with it active. It certainly doesn't do nearly as much damage as a fully charged Zantetsuken though. I definitely prefer all the eikonic feats I listed, even Phoenix, over Bahamut.

[stav8]

Originally posted by jordyexists:

Originally posted by stav8:

Titan's block is omni-directional if you use it with the booster you get from the rising tide DLC, which I have slapped in once I got enough ability points to clear out the grid. I don't tend to use air combat, and I prefer the phoenix thrust to drag enemies out of the air. I did like Odin, however I found the ability lacking in the boss fights and it was taking longer than using Bahamut's ability of megaflare charge, Titanic counter with raging fists/Garuda Gouge to get them staggered then unleasing Megaflare/Flames of rebirth on them so I dropped Odin out pretty quickly tbf. For smaller groups though he is OP.

Using Odin's ultimate ability, Dancing Steel, is a way to get charges really, really fast. Without taking up a trinket slot it will generally get to well into level 4 on just one use, if not level 5 if it hits multiple enemies at once. With the trinket, it will always full charge to level 5.
Dancing Steel also pauses time for the enemies but allows your other abilities to recharge at their normal rate, making it an exceptionally powerful ability. Sure, it sucks for damage/will damage, but that is completely mitigated by the fact that it is enabling you to use Zantetsuken at level 5 with ease. The only downside is the almost 3 second charge up of it that you can be knocked out of; that makes using it with abilities like Impulse, Shiva's perfect dodge, after a parry, after you use deadly grasp on a heavy enemy at 50% stagger, etc the best sort of scenario for using it instead of throwing it out whenever you can.
You can also get a lot of charge by using the sword and perfect dodging into counter attack or parrying. Parrying gives about a full level of charge, and is actually easier to do with Odin's sword because of its range and active frames.
I mostly used Zantetsuken during stagger, not as an AOE wipe on small enemies. Keep in mind that the gauge doesn't deplete after combat or even after changing zones or going through long cut-scenes, so you can charge it up with ease and just hold onto it until you need it.
Bahamut I liked, but it does take too long to charge unless you're constantly dodging things with it active. It certainly doesn't do nearly as much damage as a fully charged Zantetsuken though. I definitely prefer all the eikonic feats I listed, even Phoenix, over Bahamut.

Maybe it's just the Soulsbourne fan in me but I just really like the ability to parry

[jordyexists]

Originally posted by stav8:

Maybe it's just the Soulsbourne fan in me but I just really like the ability to parry

At the end of the day, it's your game to play in the way that gives you the most enjoyment.

If I were more elitist, I'd say, "Take off the training wheels and use the parry with your sword or Shiva!", but the goal isn't to "be the most effective FFXVI player", but to have fun. If you enjoy the less-risk parry mechanic of Titan, more power to you! It certainly helps keep you in the enemy's face and keep the pressure on regardless of what they do, and because of that, I can see why Phoenix is still on your bars to compliment that play-style, especially if you're using Leviathan and want to mitigate its biggest weakness (the positioning problems.)

Glad you're having fun with it!

[jordyexists]

Just one last thing, to try to get this back on topic (IE: Leviathan versus other feats.)

Check out this YouTube video of a PS5 player getting just below 2.3 million damage in a single stagger before either DLC was released. (The number would be a lot higher with the Echoes of the Fallen DLC trinket that raises the max stagger damage multiplier.)

She is using Odin's Rift Slip to cancel Shiva's feat so that she actually gains about 3 seconds of stagger time every time she uses that combo when she freezes the enemy, plus Dancing Steel to freeze the timer and get to level 5 Zantetsuken (she has the trinket equipped so it always full charges every time she uses it as well as the trinket equipped so it reduces its cooldown) so she can use Zantetsuken almost 10 times as well as her other Eikonic abilities multiple times.

Further, it is a lower level enemy so it has less defences and it is an enemy that has a damage cap on what it will actually take to its health bar so it doesn't die early before she does the full thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejMAdLTkMxk

Leviathan certainly has a lower skill floor, but when it comes to absolutely busted stuff, it pales in comparison to what is possible :)

[stav8]

I regularly hit around 2.6 million on stagger damage. I start with Diamond dust as that tends to boost it to the max multiplier, followed by the phoenix wing can't remember name, Trigger LB, Use Tidal Fury, Gigaflare, Phoenix wing, LB normally ends here, Then Wings of Revival (again names gone from me) Then Titans ultimate then trigger leviathan take one dodge step back and hit around 3 of the tidal bombs as the stagger ends i recharge leviathan to spam. Most stagger damage I have had with this method was 3.1 million

I was just progressing further in the game. Just killed Odin, so not much further to go now before I can start going for the achievements again

[jordyexists]

Originally posted by stav8:

I regularly hit around 2.6 million on stagger damage. I start with Diamond dust as that tends to boost it to the max multiplier, followed by the phoenix wing can't remember name, Trigger LB, Use Tidal Fury, Gigaflare, Phoenix wing, LB normally ends here, Then Wings of Revival (again names gone from me) Then Titans ultimate then trigger leviathan take one dodge step back and hit around 3 of the tidal bombs as the stagger ends i recharge leviathan to spam. Most stagger damage I have had with this method was 3.1 million

I was just progressing further in the game. Just killed Odin, so not much further to go now before I can start going for the achievements again

I think you're off by an order of magnitude, cause that sounds like a "regular" rotation, not one using mechanics to increase the stagger time by multiples. You should be getting around 300k, not 3m.

My personal best was around 550k on Omega and that's also using a "regular" rotation, no Rift Slip/Shiva combo to prolong the stagger duration.

Watch the video and see the difference between a regular stagger damage rotation and one that uses mechanics to prolong the duration so that you can do the full rotation multiple times.