1v1/FFA Tournament Variant discussion

[Guardian]

So, having plugged a bazillion hours into the Ouya version of Towerfall, I bought this day 1 without even having a good enough PC for the game (and then proceeded to build a PC to play this and other indies). I'm happy that there are quick 1v1 and FFA tournament settings under variants as, in addition to speeding up setup time, it puts out a standard for tournaments to follow.

That said, I'm hoping that the developer reconsiders the 1v1 and FFA settings, as I believe they should be switched. The only difference between the two is the infinite-spawning chest that's present in 1v1 and absent in FFA, but it's a huge difference.

The problem with the infinite chest in 1v1 (usually played with Last Man Standing) is that it encourages camping in one spot. Now, I'm not saying the tactic is overpowered or unbeatable or anything. I'm saying that it presents a situation much like in Nidhogg where there's no reason for either player to advance. The player in control of the chest has a never-ending supply of goodies, and the player away from it is facing an uphill battle. If the player in control of the chest leaves, they lose control of the goods. If the other player advances, they have more of a chance of dying than the opponent. If neither player advances, time runs out and no one scores any points. No incentive is given to advance as doing so presents more risk than reward for both players. tl;dr - it's boring to play, boring to watch, and can make matches take longer than necessary.

On the other hand, that same chest is absent from FFA (usually played with Headhunters), and there is where the chest actually shines. Going for the chest is an exciting risk/reward scenario where three other players are going for the same thing. Arrows fly, heads get stomped, and someone gets some goodies but usually has a difficult time retaining that spot for long. In addition to that, holding that spot for too long does nothing for the player, as you need kills to win rather than merely surviving. So the chest usually switches back and forth between claimed and unclaimed many times during a match, and provides an extra strategy option amidst the chaos. It also keeps things more exciting and dynamic by constantly providing items.

As of right now, we only play with the FFA settings (even in 1v1), and turned the 1v1 settings off after the first day. I'd love to see some discussion on this.

Thanks.

[Seiyria]

I never really saw a lot of point to the FFA / 1v1 settings, because as you said, they're only one variant apart from each other. Also, these settings are standard with myself and all of my friends anyway because it just makes the game better for us. Occasionally though we hit randomize and play with that.. that is good fun.

[MANIC]

When I play 1v1, Bottomless Chest accelerates play. It only takes several good powerups from the chest before you can run train on an unbuffed player. In my 1v1 games, the start is all careful manuvering around the chest. We use it as shield before it is opened but as soon as it is opened the other player usually tries to punish. Even if neither player dies here we both know that if we allow the other play to much chest time they will win so we try to grab powers and not die in the process. The optimol scenario though is to push your opponent back to where they don't have eyes on chest and then guard the area so they cant stop you camping it. This can be tough as the other player can attempt so many angles while you are stuck on chest (both guarding it from them and reaping the benfits). I am not a fan of having such an awesome back and forth exchange and then seeing the better player (even if it isn't me) recieve a bomb or lava which doesn't benefit them and often drags the game out so I turn off all chest items other then arrows, shield, and wings. I also use many other options to make the game less luck based and offer lots of tactical oppertunities. I never use their tournament. Not cause I don't like them (they are actually all we played at first) but because we have taken those and added even more.

In the end it all comes down to what you and your group prefer. My point was just that bottomless chest speeds games up when players realize the massive benefit it has and how to abuse some of the upgraded arrows.

[Guardian]

The thing is though, I'd rather it not come down to what each group prefers. I'd rather there was a universal agreed-upon tournament standard, i.e. with Smash.

[Maddy]

The tournament rules buttons are there to prevent fracturing of the competitive community. I wanted it to be explicit which variants are the "official" way to play. For example, "No Seeking Arrows" and "Free Aiming" negatively affect the balance of the game at a competitive level (although they can still be fun to mess around with), but many testers were assuming they were the "proper" way to play. I'm open to changing the competitive rulesets with player feedback, but I have seen these sets work very well with high level play so far.

The reason bottomless treasure is in the 1v1 set is to reward map control. The player who controls the treasure has a huge advantage, and the other player has pressure to get them off the treasure as fast as possible or they'll keep getting stronger. Without it, running away when you have a disadvantage becomes more powerful.

[Guardian]

We'll try 1v1 more with bottomless chests. I don't like 'em, but if you say they're good for 1v1 then it's worth a shot.

Screen scrolling though can get bent. That one feels like a "Mom Walked In Front Of The TV During Your Match" variant. :P Scrolling, screen flash, and screen wave got turned off on here the moment I got it.

[Arno]

Same thoughs about bottomless chest on 1v1. Also it makes the players stay in the center of the map, everything happens there. 75% of the map is useless because the battle happens at the chest.
I think this is greatly ruining the game :/

Rewarding map control is good, but not on 1v1. I think 4 players bottomless chest is much better, as stated before it's a high risk position.

When I play with friends we always use these settings :
- No tower item set (so we get mixed arrows everywhere)
- Cursed Bow (to calm down those spamming ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Makes you really take care of your arrows and not waste them like a noob)
- Return as ghost (Because it's so much fun to get a revenge :D)
- Random Map

[Seiyria]

Originally posted by Arno:

Same thoughs about bottomless chest on 1v1. Also it makes the players stay in the center of the map, everything happens there. 75% of the map is useless because the battle happens at the chest.
I think this is greatly ruining the game :/

Rewarding map control is good, but not on 1v1. I think 4 players bottomless chest is much better, as stated before it's a high risk position.

When I play with friends we always use these settings :
- No tower item set (so we get mixed arrows everywhere)
- Cursed Bow (to calm down those spamming ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Makes you really take care of your arrows and not waste them like a noob)
- Return as ghost (Because it's so much fun to get a revenge :D)
- Random Map

It's not ruining the game if it's optional.

[Guardian]

I used to like the "No Tower Item Set" variant, but in the event that we do hold an actual tournament I'd like the stage pick to matter more. Also, so many of the stages seemed designed and balanced around specific arrows.

I've never used Cursed Bow and more likely than not I never will outside of, I imagine, using it for the Awards achievement. I have no interest in punishing people with a round loss for the simple act of hitting a button, accidentally or on purpose, and considering the Mirror item hides your arrow count and picking up arrows isn't always obvious (especially in the dark), the idea of an accidental death because you THOUGHT you had an arrow would be funny exactly once, if even. After that, it's frustrating, and feels like what would happen if Street Fighter II had a mode where whiffing an SRK meant you insta-die. I'd only use the variant if we ran some sort of goofy Random Variants tournament. Also, imagine a new player picking up the controller and having that happen. They'll never play again. Also also, if someone throws arrows out like crazy, they're probably going to die anyway. Let them have fun hitting some buttons first and maybe getting a kill.

[Seiyria]

Cursed Bow forces people to pay attention. It is not for new players, but for people looking for more controlled chaos. This is a very good variant, especially in combination with secret arrows.

[Arno]

Originally posted by Seiyria:

Originally posted by Arno:

Same thoughs about bottomless chest on 1v1. Also it makes the players stay in the center of the map, everything happens there. 75% of the map is useless because the battle happens at the chest.
I think this is greatly ruining the game :/

Rewarding map control is good, but not on 1v1. I think 4 players bottomless chest is much better, as stated before it's a high risk position.

When I play with friends we always use these settings :
- No tower item set (so we get mixed arrows everywhere)
- Cursed Bow (to calm down those spamming ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Makes you really take care of your arrows and not waste them like a noob)
- Return as ghost (Because it's so much fun to get a revenge :D)
- Random Map

It's not ruining the game if it's optional.

I meant ruining the game WHEN it's on ...

Cursed bow is awesome when you have some spammy friends, when someone spam 4 arrows in your face, you can dash but you will even die. It's brainless and frustating.
When someone plays good, cursed bow is not necessary because no one spam and take care of their arrows.

[Guardian]

If someone is directly in front of me, hell yes I'm gonna shoot my entire arsenal (or just two well-staggered arrows). They shouldn't have gotten there in the first place, or they should've tricked me into firing more earlier, or they should've dodged a different way. Fault's yours when you die, not theirs, and modding the game because you can't handle the strategy is very akin to the old "no throwingj, no fireball spamming" house rules you'd see in fighting games.

[Arno]

If you can spam and not die with cursed bow (because you know how much arrow you have, because it's intentionnal), it's allright.
If you spam your shoot button 14 times even when your quiver is empty because you can't do anything else than that because you're bad, it's not good.

[Guardian]

My point is that the strategy isn't broken (or even good) and doesn't require a variant to control. Also, the result is the exact same: someone unloads a quiver and the other player fails to respond correctly. I don't understand how that's the fault of the person unloading.

[DonBerloni]

What about not having any chest altogether ?
The most interesting 1v1 rounds I played were with 1 or 3 normal arrows and nothing else.

I found that it's the same king of feeling in Smashbro. No item > random items because of the random factor of spawning items.

An interesting variant would be to have only one chest in the middle (same distance from both player) with only one set of map based arrows in it.