Muspelheim is lazy and boring

[GodHead]

Is Illwinter really happy with this nation?

If this nation were made as a player mod, no one would ever play it. It's like babby's first cut and paste job.

Why do they have ice giants at all? Since when is Muspelheim associated with ice in any way whatsoever?

The manual has this to say about Muspelheim:

"Muspelheim was added in Domionons 6. I've wanted to make the nation for a long time, but haven't had the tools or inspiration to finish the nation."

Looks like they never found that inspiration because they just ♥♥♥♥ out this less than half-baked waste of a nation code.

Edit: since that's a cut and paste, the typo is in the manual.

[Kref]

I am quite fine with new nation. Jotunheim and Muspelheim are rather different, like one have major fire and the other major water magic, sacreds of one nation have magic weapons but fatique or even set on fire national troops from non-cap castles.
If you are not that too deep in mechanics and/or say play mostly SP games you as well may say that all elf nations are mostly stupidly the same, and not only Muspelheim is uninspiresingly same as Jotunheim but also Fomoria and Hinnom since they all have giant sacred infantry that with descent blessing can carry you out in SP and some beginners MP games also.

[Quillithe]

It's definitely a derivative nation, much like Helheim was to Vanheim when it was added.

But that's fine, especially when the commanders and mages are so different.

EDIT: And I guess they definitely have a more interesting set of decisions than 'fire Niefelheim' would have - for example temperature scales are a little less obvious than usual since the Muspel giants would love heat early but it's pretty bad for you late game, where most nations have a very easy max heat/max cold/default decision pretty often.

[Rookie0879]

Muspelheim Jarl's lack of Death 2 is tough. With Niefel Jarl's, you can often rely on twiceborn to ensure you'll have plenty of opportunities to benefit from such a hefty expense. Muspelheim Jarl is relying on fire power, yet they start in the cold scales. They do wonders in the disciple game, as a subsidiary of EA Ubar, but aside from that, I hesitate to use them in the late game. Not cost efficient.

Am I missing something?

[anaris]

Originally posted by Rookie0879:

Muspelheim Jarl's lack of Death 2 is tough. With Niefel Jarl's, you can often rely on twiceborn to ensure you'll have plenty of opportunities to benefit from such a hefty expense. Muspelheim Jarl is relying on fire power, yet they start in the cold scales. They do wonders in the disciple game, as a subsidiary of EA Ubar, but aside from that, I hesitate to use them in the late game. Not cost efficient.

Am I missing something?

They're cheaper by a little but not much different overall, but they cover a weakness that's normally an issue for Niefel, which is making war beyond your "creep" of cold (they don't use ice protection, so they come out tougher in neutral temp too)? The Muspel Jarls can't anchor your late game as easily as Niefels can, but they bring cloud trapeze raiding which is a devastating addition to the Jotunheim standard, Fire Storm out of the box, and universal sulphur haze access.

It might be amusing memery to airdrop Bane Fire Dart on enemy giants I guess.

[Kref]

Originally posted by Rookie0879:

Muspelheim Jarl's lack of Death 2 is tough. With Niefel Jarl's, you can often rely on twiceborn to ensure you'll have plenty of opportunities to benefit from such a hefty expense. Muspelheim Jarl is relying on fire power, yet they start in the cold scales. They do wonders in the disciple game, as a subsidiary of EA Ubar, but aside from that, I hesitate to use them in the late game. Not cost efficient.

Am I missing something?

I think there are a lot of spells and the situations can be different. Muspelheim giants have above mentioned fire storm, while niefel guys have mass destruction niefel flames on research level 9, not 7. Muspelheim jarls also have a good use on phoenix pire, and fire shield with areal damaging flame blade probably gives them ability to score more kills per turn on elemental unprotected guys then niefelheim ones.

[Ddraig Lleuad]

Yeah fundamentally Muspel Jarls are a very different tool to Niefel Jarls. The chassis is close, but the changed pathing means you use it very differently. They can't do the jobs that Niefel Jarls do nearly as well, they can't sit in cold 5 and W I T H S T A N D, but they have considerable scope for aggressive raiding and knocking your opponent's raiders on the head.

[Sombre]

You may not like the content, but keep the criticism respectful please.

[Count von Bunnyhopven]

Muspelheim have better non-sacred troops in their cap than Nief. (Better attack/Defense, protection, less HP and Str). So they can work just fine with a sleeping pretender. The giant versions are better in neutral temps and come with built in magic weapons compared to Niefel giants.

The Muspel Jarls also start with a Fire brand out the box and does thus not need to forge a melee weapon. They also have an easier time forging early game gear for them at lvl 3 with the dragon helmet and fire plate.

[Legowarrior]

Originally posted by Quillithe:

It's definitely a derivative nation, much like Helheim was to Vanheim when it was added.

But that's fine, especially when the commanders and mages are so different.

EDIT: And I guess they definitely have a more interesting set of decisions than 'fire Niefelheim' would have - for example temperature scales are a little less obvious than usual since the Muspel giants would love heat early but it's pretty bad for you late game, where most nations have a very easy max heat/max cold/default decision pretty often.

I have no problem with derivative nations. If it means more nations and nations with cool differing paths or sacreds. I hope they do more of them, but I hope they would direct it to more underpresented nations, like TC.

[GodHead]

Originally posted by Sombre:

You may not like the content, but keep the criticism respectful please.

If you presented this as a mod, it would never get used in any online game.

It is phenomenally lazy.

There are so many ideas that could have been used. Look at how Dungeons and Dragons distinguishes between ice and fire giants.

Look at how Marvel treated the Norse mythological realms, the fire giants, and Surtur.

Why on earth does the realm of fire and ash have the ability to recruit ice giants at all?

It makes no sense.

[AN]

Originally posted by GodHead:

Originally posted by Sombre:

You may not like the content, but keep the criticism respectful please.

If you presented this as a mod, it would never get used in any online game.

It is phenomenally lazy.

There are so many ideas that could have been used. Look at how Dungeons and Dragons distinguishes between ice and fire giants.

Look at how Marvel treated the Norse mythological realms, the fire giants, and Surtur.

Why on earth does the realm of fire and ash have the ability to recruit ice giants at all?

It makes no sense.

So you haven't been reading your own thread and you aren't familiar with the mythology, is what you're telling us? You just want to complain based on your pop culture knowledge of the topic and refuse to learn anything?

[Ddraig Lleuad]

Personally I'm quite happy that Dominions is rather pointedly not following the examples of D&D or Marvel.

[dp101]

Originally posted by Rookie0879:

Muspelheim Jarl's lack of Death 2 is tough. With Niefel Jarl's, you can often rely on twiceborn to ensure you'll have plenty of opportunities to benefit from such a hefty expense. Muspelheim Jarl is relying on fire power, yet they start in the cold scales. They do wonders in the disciple game, as a subsidiary of EA Ubar, but aside from that, I hesitate to use them in the late game. Not cost efficient.

Am I missing something?

Regarding twiceborn, it only requires D2 and your jarls are D1 with 1 in 3 being D2, So a bunch of them can cast twiceborn themselves, and then make staffs for the rest to use to cast it too and then put away.

Edit: Also about the accusation of there not being bigbrain stuff to do with scales play, you've really got a lot of options in practice. You can go heat to buff your jarls the same way nief goes cold, you can be neutral since you don't actually need cold for your cold jotuns and your opponents are likely to bring heat (plus jarls are tough enough that they can survive regardless), or you can go cold as a defensive measure to take advantage of mass snow move and sacrifice a bit of the power of your jarls while on defence in exchange, though again when they leave your dominion they'll stop suffering from it. Plenty of options.

[GodHead]

Originally posted by Ddraig Lleuad:

Personally I'm quite happy that Dominions is rather pointedly not following the examples of D&D or Marvel.

Instead it is just literally copying itself. To it's detriment.

😂

Those examples were cited simply as ways to distinguish Neifelheim/Niflheimr from Muspelheim/Múspellsheimr.

It's silly to combine the two. They are literally opposite of Ygdrassil from each other. Opposite ends of the spectrum.

[Ddraig Lleuad]

Originally posted by GodHead:

Instead it is just literally copying itself. To it's detriment.

😂

Those examples were cited simply as ways to distinguish Neifelheim from Muspelheim.

I disagree. You've had a page and a half now of people discussing ways that Muspelheim plays differently to Niefelheim in practice; i went into it in some depth myself back in post #9. You've acknowledged none of it, instead continuing to bold-facedly assert your complaint on the strength of itself. This is not an argument in good faith, and I hope nobody else wastes time treating it as one.