Muspelheim is lazy and boring

[GodHead]

Is Illwinter really happy with this nation?

If this nation were made as a player mod, no one would ever play it. It's like babby's first cut and paste job.

Why do they have ice giants at all? Since when is Muspelheim associated with ice in any way whatsoever?

The manual has this to say about Muspelheim:

"Muspelheim was added in Domionons 6. I've wanted to make the nation for a long time, but haven't had the tools or inspiration to finish the nation."

Looks like they never found that inspiration because they just ♥♥♥♥ out this less than half-baked waste of a nation code.

Edit: since that's a cut and paste, the typo is in the manual.

[Zonk]

In-game descriptions explain why they have Jotun in addition to Muspels & Fire Giants: it's a valley of fire and ash surrounded by cold lands where non-fire giants live.

Also having both a fire AND ice theme provides an opportunity for unique mechanics, notably the capital being hot (and the Muspel giants having heatpower) while the rest of the nation prefers cold.

[AN]

Yeah I'm not actually familiar with any mod nations from dom 5 where the capital and the rest of the nation prefer different temperature scales.

[GodHead]

LA Ragha, but dumb, because the Muspel capital has a site that takes care of it for you.

Why are people thinking there is some hidden big brain play with the scales for Muspelheim?

There are 20 units, 6 national spells and a capital site in the nation. Of that, 12 units and 5 spells are exactly the same as Niefelheim.

Of the units that are different, the Muspel Herse, Muspel Gode, Muspel Hirdman and Muspel Giant are find-replace copies that are *barely* different from the Jotun Herse, Jotun Gode, Jotun Hirdman, and Jotun Giant.

So, 63% of the nation is literally identical. And another 15% is barely distinguishable

[Mormacil]

The difference between fire and ice jotun are quite noticeable. They have different equipment and different stats. Which makes them not 1:1 replacements at all. If you use them similarly you're gonna get worse results. It's not earth shatteringly different but noticeable. Less axes, less armor, more attack skill, really makes a different unit.

Originally posted by GodHead:

Is Illwinter really happy with this nation?

If this nation were made as a player mod, no one would ever play it. It's like babby's first cut and paste job.

Why do they have ice giants at all? Since when is Muspelheim associated with ice in any way whatsoever?

The manual has this to say about Muspelheim:

"Muspelheim was added in Domionons 6. I've wanted to make the nation for a long time, but haven't had the tools or inspiration to finish the nation."

Looks like they never found that inspiration because they just ♥♥♥♥ out this less than half-baked waste of a nation code.

Do I find Muspelheim to be a particularly cool take? No. But the association between Muspelheim and ice is pretty well attested. Ginnungagap is the famous place where the fires of Muspelheim reach the ice of Niefelheim and creation was possible. It's also the birthplace of the first Jotun. So tying all of those together is both well attested in the source material and logical.

I can relate to Illwinter a bunch on this, I killed so many iterations of Muspelheim myself. Only at the release of Dom6 did I finish anything I found acceptable. Personally I'd lean into feeding the fires of Muspelheim, literally. Fire giants that when fed enough (corpses) grow bigger and burn brighter.

If there's anything missing lorewise it's the Muspel cavalry that will shatter the rainbow bridge during Ragnarok. Anyway if you want a more far out there take on Muspelheim try mine.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3141987558

Originally posted by AN:

Yeah I'm not actually familiar with any mod nations from dom 5 where the capital and the rest of the nation prefer different temperature scales.

Probably because that couldn't be modded, province temperature preference was unmoddable, still is.

[AN]

I mean you could have done something with cap only/terrain temperature recruits and starting sites and inherent elemental resistance and event sites popping up in the "wrong" temperature to cludge together the effect if you really wanted to.

[freek_o_nature]

Originally posted by Mormacil:

If there's anything missing lorewise it's the Muspel cavalry that will shatter the rainbow bridge during Ragnarok. Anyway if you want a more far out there take on Muspelheim try mine.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3141987558

And it's got some truly bad-ass sprite work! Question: what's up with those cloven-hoof-lookin' feet? Is that something from mythology, or just a style choice? Is it related to that Pretender-lookin' Ginnunga Beef? Just curious!

[Mormacil]

It's both honestly. I needed something to fill out the feet and the first being alive in Gunningagap was the primordial cow. So as these guys created everything and similarly predate the birth of the giants I felt it a fitting detail.

[freek_o_nature]

Ah, neat! I was wondering if it was maybe a Rob Liefeld type of thing, but this is a much more satisfying answer. :D

EDIT: I specifically like the way the ljostursar have a cloven-hoof kind of look to their feet but don't actually have the bovine or ungulate legs to go with it, all furry with a high "ankle" that looks like backwards knee, kind of like satyrs have. I think it gives a cool and slightly alien look to their bodies!

[Ddraig Lleuad]

Originally posted by GodHead:

Why are people thinking there is some hidden big brain play with the scales for Muspelheim?

Because there is? The stuff that's different is significant in its differences.

Niefelheim is a nation of tough sacreds that lives and dies by how well it can leverage its cold focus, with a battle doctrine that tends to revolve around outlasting the enemy. Tough niefel jarl thugs, lots of ice prot and chill auras, turbocommunion skellispam capacity, the Skratti are at their height of power (and cost), lots of water and death magic.

Muspelheim does... Basically none of that. You've still got the Jotun Gygjas to give you a bit of a death/blood/glamour focus, but no skratti, no water magic, your big giants are weaker (although less scale-reliant for protection) in your own dominion but the pathing differences give them a lot more magicmove capacity, encouraging you to push aggressively beyond your borders. Muspeldottirs and Muspelgygja's give you much, much more of a fire/air focus to your magic, which is a whole different toolkit - less grindy tarpit plays, much more of an evocation/aggressive thug/elemental dump focus. Your kit coheres a lot less than Niefelheim, there's more room for it to get in its own way, but it also has much greater width and scope to come at enemies from different angles.

Like, yeah you do share a lot of your unit roster with Niefelheim. So? This isn't, and honestly never has been, a game where you use every part of a nation's unit roster, a lot of stuff is there for flavour and atmosphere. None of the niefel line nations have been falling over themselves to recruit the leather armoured jotun troops, f'rex, and MA Marignon sure isn't in a hurry to recruit uh... anything besides Knights of the Chalice, lol. What defines the nation is the stuff you actually use, and that's a list that's overwhelmingly defined by your mages and their pathing access. In those terms Niefelheim to Muspelheim is the difference between Niefel Jarls, Skratti, Gygjas/Muspel Jarl's, Muspelgygja, Muspeldottirs, and Gygjas. That's huge.

[GodHead]

That's very cool.

[freek_o_nature]

By the way, don't forget, it's entirely conceivable that Illwinter may take another pass at Muspelheim in a future patch, further developing the nation's quirks and mechanics—they've done it before, which means there's plenty of precedent—so the current version may not be the same a year from now.

[Mormacil]

Oh yeah they totally could put an interesting spin on the later ages. It doesn't have to straight up devolve like Niefelheim. Maybe we get a focus on Ragnarok, the judgment of the gods, literally. Give us some fire giant born god slayers akin to Mekone.

[Zonk]

Originally posted by freek_o_nature:

By the way, don't forget, it's entirely conceivable that Illwinter may take another pass at Muspelheim in a future patch

I wouldn't expect the nation's recruitables or fundamental mechanics to change significantly, but they might get unique national spells (unique as in "not shared with any other nation").

[freek_o_nature]

Fair enough, though it could be those spells that end up making the difference!

[Mormacil]

I played around with a possible idea for Muspelheim, an immobile Surtr hero that only removes his blade/ends his watch with a spell that heralds Ragnarok and destroys a capsite.