Spirit Form? What is it?

[Legowarrior]

What determines whether something gets Spirit Form?
I notices that most ghosts have it, but then Ditanu, Bean Sidhe and Shura don't. Elementals have it, but Illusions don't. The Jinn and Kami don't have it, but Oni Spirits do.

Mound Fiends don't have it, but Flame Spirits do.
Water Elementals and Living Mercury has Spirit Form, but not Ethereal, but Green Lions don't.

[dfnskjl]

It is an arbitrary """""balance""""" (or possibly, in some cases, sometimes, ""realism"") trait. It is almost certainly meant to nerf high natural protection from spells + inherent ethereal first and foremost, and maybe after that "make sense" as well.

[Mormacil]

As I see it, it's there to differentiates between an ethereal being that can still wear stuff versus truly ethereal beings that can't interact with protection.

[TheMeInTeam]

It's interesting that you can cast ethereal on an ironskin thug, but you can't put ironskin on stuff that's already ethereal in many cases. Those quotes around "balance" belong there :p.

[Legowarrior]

Postat inițial de Mormacil:

As I see it, it's there to differentiates between an ethereal being that can still wear stuff versus truly ethereal beings that can't interact with protection.

Keep in mind, Water Elementals and Living Mercury both have Spirit Form without Ethereal.

And, unlike Shura, Wratihlords do have Spirit Form.

[Mormacil]

Yes and both have no ability to rely on protection or can be turned to a different material as that would fundamentally change them. I don't see how that doesn't align with what I wrote.

[Phyvo]

Water elementals/mercury are the only units with spirit form but not ethereal. There are a lot of units with ethereal but not spirit form. On water elementals that's probably because they don't want stoneskin buffs on something that doesn't have skin, but then water queens don't have skin and don't have spirit form. Phantasms are described as dreams made real, so interacting with ironskin kinda makes sense, but then it's confusing as to why they are ethereal. At least with illusions the point is kind of moot because they have 1 HP so spirit form wouldn't do anything in practice.

Maybe the most confusing thing for me is Wraith lords have spiritform+ethereal but the flavor text literally says they are summoned to take physical form. Despite that, they don't really have skin or bones?

The difference between spirit form and ethereal is just incredibly unclear. Any time I try to reason out an explanation for one example there's always another that screws it up. And, ironically, the common sense definitions of "ethereal" and "spirit form" are too murky to distinguish themselves from each other.

[Mormacil]

spirit form makes one immune to changes in your elemental composition. Hence elementals get it.

[Draken]

"Ethereal" is probably a few different similar working effects rolled into one trait.

You could be kind of phased out of reality or an non-corporal spirit and both lore-wise different effects just count as "Ethereal".

[Phyvo]

Postat inițial de Mormacil:

spirit form makes one immune to changes in your elemental composition. Hence elementals get it.

But then queens/kings of the elements don't despite obviously being made of those same substances.

[TheMeInTeam]

Per mod inspector, earth elementals do not.

[Legowarrior]

Note that Slyphs also do not have Spirit Form.

[dfnskjl]

Earth Elementals with skin made of bark!

I guess I can maybe see water turned into bark/stone/iron as not working very well... the Water Elemental might turn into a statue or something. Unless it is liquid bark/stone/iron which for the last two would be possible (what is liquid bark? Do the sea dogs know????), though it might require a more difficult spell or something. Same with the air/fire (gaseous?) form of those things. But then ghosts??? spirits???? spiritfmorm????? Ectoplasmal bark?

It makes less and less sense the more you think about it. At least if the trait was called "Untransformable" or something stupid and very straightforward like that it would be easier to accept I think.

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't think magic liquid iron is particularly less plausible than magic flexible human skin.

The """"balance"""" as used above does seem to be the reason :p.

[Scrapulous]

Trying to come up with a rationale for this kind of change seems doomed to failure. Consider: if a human's skin became iron or bark, that human would surely die as a result. If a water elemental, who is conceivably just a bundle of sentient water, had its outer layer of water transformed to another substance, it would conceivably just become a slightly smaller water elemental.

The conceit in all these spells is that part of the magic enables the recipient not only to benefit from the material properties of its new form but also to survive it biologically. It's not at all clear why magic should be able to give a human the properties of iron but why it can't give a ghost the properties of iron.

It seems to me that balance is the clear reason, whatever you may think of the outcome.

[DasaKamov]

Postat inițial de Scrapulous:

Consider: if a human's skin became iron or bark, that human would surely die as a result.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVgVB3qsySQ