Should the Rain and Storm spells work differently in wastes?

[Demonsthenes]

I have been thinking about Fear of the Flood, which feels like a cool and thematic new feature for the Hinnom lines of nations.

And one thing that feels off to me is that it feels bad that any W2 mage with a bit of research can cast Rain and inflict this intense terror on those giants, with no direct counterplay at all for the Hinnom line giants to counteract it with their own magic or items, other than just boosting morale. I suppose a rapid evaporation spell could be an answer.

But I've been pondering a potential thematic solution would be for the Rain/Stygian Rain spells to not function or have a chance to fail in wastes, just as they don't work in caves. And Storm cast in a waste should create a sandstorm, with appropriate effects on the battlefield for that environment.

This would also be interesting for nations like Abysia that love fire mage and thrive in wastes; one could cast rituals like Second Sun in order to try to terraform provinces into wastes so that Rain and Storm no longer penalize your fire magic, and maybe they'd be able to team up with Hinnom/Ashdod for that shared goal. (Actually, I'm not sure Second Sun will do it -- it looks like you need high Death scales to trigger terraforming towards wastes? But it'd be cool if it did work).

[Mormacil]

I don't really agree giving that wastelands also cover tundra etc. Also rain in a desert is extremely dangerous, much more prone to flashfloods than a marshy river delta.

[boozermonkey]

Originally posted by Demonsthenes:

And one thing that feels off to me is that it feels bad that any W2 mage with a bit of research can cast Rain and inflict this intense terror on those giants, with no direct counterplay at all for the Hinnom line giants to counteract it with their own magic or items.

Not sure what you mean by rain causing terror on hinnom giants. The rain spell only acts to increase fatigue when casting fire spells if memory serves, and hinnom troops won’t be doing that as they are too busy stomping on everything in their path.

[Mormacil]

Originally posted by boozermonkey:

Originally posted by Demonsthenes:

And one thing that feels off to me is that it feels bad that any W2 mage with a bit of research can cast Rain and inflict this intense terror on those giants, with no direct counterplay at all for the Hinnom line giants to counteract it with their own magic or items.

Not sure what you mean by rain causing terror on hinnom giants. The rain spell only acts to increase fatigue when casting fire spells if memory serves, and hinnom troops won’t be doing that as they are too busy stomping on everything in their path.

The greatest Hinnom giants have a new trait in Dom6 that reduces their morale during rain because it reminds them of that one time Noah left them stranded as he sailed away.

[Draken]

Originally posted by boozermonkey:

Originally posted by Demonsthenes:

And one thing that feels off to me is that it feels bad that any W2 mage with a bit of research can cast Rain and inflict this intense terror on those giants, with no direct counterplay at all for the Hinnom line giants to counteract it with their own magic or items.

Not sure what you mean by rain causing terror on hinnom giants. The rain spell only acts to increase fatigue when casting fire spells if memory serves, and hinnom troops won’t be doing that as they are too busy stomping on everything in their path.

Quite a few of the big giant units that are descendants of Nehpilims have a trait called: Fear of the Flood

I don't remember exactly how it works, but they get something like fear checks or morale penalties when exposed to water.

Like the rain spell or being in an underwater province.

[boozermonkey]

Originally posted by Mormacil:

Originally posted by boozermonkey:

Not sure what you mean by rain causing terror on hinnom giants. The rain spell only acts to increase fatigue when casting fire spells if memory serves, and hinnom troops won’t be doing that as they are too busy stomping on everything in their path.

The greatest Hinnom giants have a new trait in Dom6 that reduces their morale during rain because it reminds them of that one time Noah left them stranded as he sailed away.

A weird nerf to giants? That’s… okay not sure why they needed a nerf?

[Zonk]

I could see the Rain requiring more fatigue&time to cast in wastelands. And maybe less in swamps. Could apply similar logic to a few other spells perhaps.

Do note that there is already an incentive to fight in wastelands if you don't want rain:

Originally posted by page 73 of the manual:

Weather
The weather for any land battle is usually clear skies and during the day. But the weather can also be rainy or snowyat random times, unless the battle occurs in a wasteland or
in a cave.

Snowfall can only happen if the cold scale is 1 or more and rain can only occur if the heat is 0 or greater.
Snowfall chance
Cold scale * 15%
Rainfall chance
Growth scale * 10% + 10%

As for why the Nephilim and their descendants have Fear of the Flood: it's a reference to the biblical flood, but not (yet) explained in game lore.

Originally posted by Draken:

I don't remember exactly how it works, but they get something like fear checks or morale penalties when exposed to water.

It's just a penalty, the value depends on the unit; you can see the different values in the Inspector (fearoftheflood tag) but not in-game.
It varies from -2 (King of the City, Berytos hero) to -10 (but these units have morale 30 so it doesn't seem to matter). Most recruitables have -4 or -5, but LA Feminie's Lost Tribe giants only have -3.

[powerfinder]

If Rain creates water out of nothing, it should work everywhere. If the spell causes clouds to shed water or condenses moisture in the air, then it would make sense that rain would not always work in the desert.

I like these ideas, the sandstorm in particular. But I think the main beneficiary would be Abysia, not the descendants of the Nephilim.