Should Berytos get cheaper mercenaries?

[dfnskjl]

A common complaint about Berytos, in Dominions 5 at least, was that it had a very weak early game or that it was "rush bait". As there have not been many direct changes to Berytos as far as I can see, this is probably still true. A (hopefully) flavorful way to change this would be to give them a discount on mercenaries.

But why a dicsount on mercenaries? I believe Berytos is, partially, based on Carthage and, during Hannibal's time at least, I'm pretty sure a large part of Carthage's armies were made up of mercenaries, though I might be full of ♥♥♥♥. In addition to this, mercenaries are powerful in the early game and then get less relevant as the game goes on, as armies get larger and magic starts mattering more and more. Meaning a mercenary discount would be most impactful in the early game, which is where Berytos is at its weakest.

Something like a 20 percent discount would allow Berytos to win mercenary bids if they invest substantially in it. While it might seem like a lot, keep in mind that the available mercenaries are random. Sometimes you get the Shipwreckers on turn 1, other times you get 30 archers or a bunch of militia.

This might be a way to buff other nations as well that struggle in the early game, like Kailasa, but I'm not sure (like actually don't know enough about indian mythology or history) if it would be as flavorful as for Berytos.

[Demonsthenes]

A mercenary discount would be a cool thematics feature for berytos!

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by dfnskjl:

As there have not been many direct changes to Berytos

The indirect change of allowing players to recruit larger armies right off the bat does make Berytos less of an easy target in the early game, in my experience.

[dfnskjl]

Originally posted by DasaKamov:

Originally posted by dfnskjl:

As there have not been many direct changes to Berytos

The indirect change of allowing players to recruit larger armies right off the bat does make Berytos less of an easy target in the early game, in my experience.

Possibly, but the other indirect change of "more indies" arguably makes Berytos' expansion worse. In which case you go back to being an easy target. Though that might be because Dominions 6 is new and expansion has not been solved yet.

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't mind a merc discount, but some nations will always be "rush bait" relative to others.

It annoys me that sometimes perception trumps and forces a reality. Depending on build, a nation like Berytos might be substantially harder to rush rush than someone like Arco (some blesses), Xibalba, Fomoria, or some of the elves in a particular game. But players might still agree that it's an "easy target", 2v1 it, and usually win unless the 2v1 makes mistakes. Even if it was easier to 2v1 someone else.

It's not obvious to me that a nation with map move 16 guys that can sabbath into H3 (which it has enough slaves to do several times w/o a single turn blood hunting) and also drop lightning bolts and fire blasts behind PD before turn 12 is a free target. If they have a drakon in addition, even less so, since before long it will have stuff like regen and quickness on it due to its paths + national mages. Not insurmountable, but compared to rushing a nation with an imprisoned bless, even stat bless, there's a good chance it's harder to attack into the awake expander nation that attacks 3 separate resists and needs lots of > 25 damage weapons to put down the god even when it's alone. You can't raid that with low commitment stuff, and to win vs sabbath + PD + some army requires a hell bless or the attacker to full commit his mage corps. Anything less and not only might the attack fail, but the attacking nation is now at risk to be attacked by Berytos instead.

As for Kailasa, they have anyfort sacreds and sacred summons. A bless can carry them pretty far. Similar deal with nations like EA Xib and EA Agartha where their scales troops are dogwater but their nations overall can play pretty well depending on how they're built.

[dfnskjl]

Originally posted by TheMeInTeam:

I don't mind a merc discount, but some nations will always be "rush bait" relative to others.

It annoys me that sometimes perception trumps and forces a reality. Depending on build, a nation like Berytos might be substantially harder to rush rush than someone like Arco (some blesses), Xibalba, Fomoria, or some of the elves in a particular game. But players might still agree that it's an "easy target", 2v1 it, and usually win unless the 2v1 makes mistakes. Even if it was easier to 2v1 someone else.

It's not obvious to me that a nation with map move 16 guys that can sabbath into H3 (which it has enough slaves to do several times w/o a single turn blood hunting) and also drop lightning bolts and fire blasts behind PD before turn 12 is a free target. If they have a drakon in addition, even less so, since before long it will have stuff like regen and quickness on it due to its paths + national mages. Not insurmountable, but compared to rushing a nation with an imprisoned bless, even stat bless, there's a good chance it's harder to attack into the awake expander nation that attacks 3 separate resists and needs lots of > 25 damage weapons to put down the god even when it's alone. You can't raid that with low commitment stuff, and to win vs sabbath + PD + some army requires a hell bless or the attacker to full commit his mage corps. Anything less and not only might the attack fail, but the attacking nation is now at risk to be attacked by Berytos instead.

As for Kailasa, they have anyfort sacreds and sacred summons. A bless can carry them pretty far. Similar deal with nations like EA Xib and EA Agartha where their scales troops are dogwater but their nations overall can play pretty well depending on how they're built.

Fair points I suppose. Especially the one about people not considering the actual build they are fighting against, just the nation. Though a part of that might be that you don't know everything about your opponent (and in Dom 5 and earlier the game would not remember enemy blesses for you), so you either have to make decisions based on stereotypes like "Berytos is bad in the early game" or make an effort to gather intelligence, which might take "too long" if you feel you need to rush someone. Fog of war now also makes it harder to see how big your opponent is etc.

[Nukular Power]

i think this would be fitting and cool

[Emphyrio]

I think some nations already get discounts or premiums on mercs, or certain mercs.

[Emphyrio]

Originally posted by TheMeInTeam:

It's not obvious to me that a nation with map move 16 guys that can sabbath into H3 (which it has enough slaves to do several times w/o a single turn blood hunting) and also drop lightning bolts and fire blasts behind PD before turn 12 is a free target.

I don't see what makes Berytos a rush-bait nation either. I've only seen them a few times in MP but never got that impression of them. All I can see is that their troops are indie-tier and even their "elite" warriors have non-elite stats.

[TheMeInTeam]

Most of their troops are indy tier. I snuck in Arco in my comp list above for a reason though. Most of THAT nation's roster is also indy tier (same for many nations, which have a bunch of scales troops that are marginally better than indy if at all then a sacred). Unless you think heavy infantry that trade between 1 atk vs 1 def or chariots vs elephants are game-changing differences, you're probably comparing fighting wind riders to colossi warriors.

Wind riders are 12/17 atk/def and hit for 14 damage by default, with a charge bonus.
Colossi warriors are 12/15 atk/def and hit for 20 damage by default.

There are other considerations like the benefits/limitation of the mounts, that wind riders fly and repel (while colossi get +1 atk from weapon) and more. But the fact of the matter is that while wind riders excel in expansion due to hold & attack rear, whether they're better or worse in a straight up fight depends on bless and what they're fighting. We should expect these nations to perform very similarly in terms of troops after the expansion phase, with a small edge to mystics being able to communion w/o using slaves. Yet one of these is widely considered rush bait, while the other is not widely considered rush bait...despite that if we just line up troops side by side, they're not going to do that differently in player wars...

All that said I like the thematic merc discount and don't really see a problem with it. That will rarely make or break a game.

[dfnskjl]

Originally posted by TheMeInTeam:

Most of their troops are indy tier. I snuck in Arco in my comp list above for a reason though. Most of THAT nation's roster is also indy tier (same for many nations, which have a bunch of scales troops that are marginally better than indy if at all then a sacred). Unless you think heavy infantry that trade between 1 atk vs 1 def or chariots vs elephants are game-changing differences, you're probably comparing fighting wind riders to colossi warriors.

Wind riders are 12/17 atk/def and hit for 14 damage by default, with a charge bonus.
Colossi warriors are 12/15 atk/def and hit for 20 damage by default.

There are other considerations like the benefits/limitation of the mounts, that wind riders fly and repel (while colossi get +1 atk from weapon) and more. But the fact of the matter is that while wind riders excel in expansion due to hold & attack rear, whether they're better or worse in a straight up fight depends on bless and what they're fighting. We should expect these nations to perform very similarly in terms of troops after the expansion phase, with a small edge to mystics being able to communion w/o using slaves. Yet one of these is widely considered rush bait, while the other is not widely considered rush bait...despite that if we just line up troops side by side, they're not going to do that differently in player wars...

All that said I like the thematic merc discount and don't really see a problem with it. That will rarely make or break a game.

Are the Cardaces/Myrmidons any good compared to indies with their higher attack density from formation fighter?

[TheMeInTeam]

Cardaces and Berytian heavy spearmen (which also get formation fighter 2) are "better" than indy light infantry and such, most of the time. They're a bit weaker to AoE effects like spells and trample.

Myrmidons have pretty decent stats, but suffer from needing boatloads of them to prevent surrounds, resource competition with sacreds, and the fact that they have a combat speed of 6. They're reasonably effective line holders, but nobody running a white centaur stat bless should look at a high-scales Arco + myrmidons and think "woah, don't think I can attack into that".

Pegasi aren't exactly sturdy and they certainly aren't Man unicorn levels of good, but at least they're not a serious MR liability like many mounts (including both elephants and chariots). Wind riders will need help to get through prot though...in fact bad ability to defeat prot by default is another property Arco and Berytos share. If it's too big to trample through prot, they either need a bless that boosts damage or to use magic to solve it instead.

[Zonk]

I agree a mercenary discount would be nice, however it should come with a description/lore update to explain why (Carthage was very reliant on mercenaries, but that doesn't make it obvious Berytos be would since nothing in the current description hints that)

I'd also like them to get a cavalry commander to lead the Lancers around, otherwise it's hard to make use of their 20 mapmove (yes, the Brides have that, but they're cap-only and StR).

[dfnskjl]

Originally posted by Zonk:

I agree a mercenary discount would be nice, however it should come with a description/lore update to explain why (Carthage was very reliant on mercenaries, but that doesn't make it obvious Berytos be would since nothing in the current description hints that)

I'd also like them to get a cavalry commander to lead the Lancers around, otherwise it's hard to make use of their 20 mapmove (yes, the Brides have that, but they're cap-only and StR).

All nations that already have maluses/bonuses mercenary cost (Hinnom for example), should probably have it in their nation description, yes. Lancer commander sounds good.

[Swirler]

Seems like an interesting idea. I'm a fan of nation-specific abilities like this. Even just knowing exactly what nations get a discount on the nation-picking screen would be handy.


You know, it would be interesting to offer some of your own troops as mercenaries. I suppose you could even specify exactly who is allowed to hire them.

It could make for an interesting proxy-war thing in multiplayer. And it would help add a bit of variety to the mercenaries.

Being able to see the unit stats of the mercenaries would be nice. I know mod-inspector exists but even so.

Being able to hire them for longer than 3 turns or even be able to have the option as 1st pick of any new mercenary bands would be cool too. So you're not forced to compete with a random number of other people for certain mercenaries.

Could also have a mechanic where if you hire them X times in a row you get a chance to keep them in your army. I think in the past certain nations have incorporated mercenaries/roaming bands of soldiers into their professional units?