Dominions 6 - Winter's Gift and Cold Nations

[Legowarrior]

One thing I've noticed is that Winter's Gift is redundant for nations that are set to cold 2 or 3. For those nations, all the Sacred units have Snow Movement, so the benefit is strictly for regular nations that dip into cold 1 or 2.

But, there is a minor benefit and that is indie sacred units and generic summons.
They would benefit slightly if a nation like Niefelheim took Winter's Gift and it would be thematic.

On the other hand, the pay off would be very slight.

That is why, like LA Pythium, I propose that Niefelheim get the bless Winter's Gift, for free. The chief benefit would be Indie Priests, so the perk itself would be minor, but it would be thematic.

Much like how MA C'tis sacred units aren't impacted by their disease, or how LA Pythium automatically provides poison protection bless (on top of having strong strong resistances on Sacreds and having a unique Poison Protection Spell), I think it would be in keeping with the theme.

I don't know if other Cold 3 nations should have the same consideration. After all, only Niefelheim is both Cold 3 and wants to cast Illwinter, but I guess you could make a case for Vaettiheim.

[SaD-82]

I don't see this as convincing.
Indie sacreds aren't national sacreds - why should they be blessed by a free bless of a nation that has evolved into having certain benefits? That's like giving indie sacreds free fire res when playing as Abysia and so on. This would destroy the purpose of those blesses to begin with.
If I want to play with Niefelheim and I bank on having indie sacreds (or summons) and I want them to move without restrictions like my national sacreds, then I would choose this bless. Or not if I see other blesses more in my favour. Those are strategic choices.
Giving something for free (and then it would have to be true for all nations with their special benefits they have due to their lore) destroys decision-making.

I would oppose such a change.

[Legowarrior]

That certain is a valid opinion.

But that logic is applicable to C'tis as well. and to LA Pythium. Both of them provide benefits to Indie Priests that are 'free'.

With C'tis, if you want to rely on indie priests, there is the Recuperation Bless after all.

And for LA Pythium, you could just take Poison Resistance.

But Illwinter elected to provide them specific national buffs and Winter's Gift would be in alignment with that.

[Zonk]

I don't think it would be especially thematic, and the examples don't really fit:

LA Pythium Serpent Cult features snakes & serpents as a big part of the national religion, while a cold nation doesn't necessarily do the equivalent for snow & the cold.
Even when they do, it could be that they expect worshippers to already be good at dealing with these things.

MA C'tis only gives indie sacreds the ability to ignore the side effect of a specific dominion-based national trait, it doesn't do anything against "generic" disease (or poison).

Also, the same logic could be used to give MANY more bonus blesses; it's fairly common for a nation's troops to have special traits that are also available as a bless.
So at that point it would also make sense to give Pangaea recuperation, Abysia fire resistance, Sidhe/Tuatha nations mirror image...

HOWEVER, it might be a good idea to rework Winter's Gift to make taking it on a cold nation a meaningful choice. It could definetely do more than just snow move, given the fancy name.

Ideally the extra benefit would be something that (assuming the bless stays at its current cost)
1)Is not hugely impactful
2)Potentially helps everyone, but helps cold nations more
3)Has no downside, or only a small one

Some potential options:
Coldpower 1 would be thematic, but not fit the above 3 guidelines.

Iceprot 1 might be a bit better, it's still thematic but less impactful.

Winter power 10% or 20% might fit 1 & 3 (since the HP penalty has been halved, so 20% would mean only -10% in summer), but isn't extra helpful to cold nations since it doesn't care for local temperature, only season.

[Legowarrior]

Originally posted by Zonk:

I don't think it would be especially thematic, and the examples don't really fit:

I'm going to have to disagree with you Zonk. Neifleheim is all about the Cold. It's not just - "we live in a cold climate" The Niefel Giants have Cold Power, Chill Aura and Ice Protection. They have Cold Recruitment. Their Domain Spreads Cold and one of their goals is to cast Illwinter, making the world Colder.

They are Cold on Cold, wrapped in Cold, comforted by cold. You don't become a Priest of this Ice nation and then fail to walk in the snow. That's like asking an accountant to do surgery or a Plumber to Land a Passenger Airline Plane.

So yes, I think Snow Walk for Niefleheim is the equivalent of MA C'tis making indies immune to their domain effect or LA Pythium being all about serpents and poison.

EDIT: Also, it gives the perk of adding Snow Walk to your pretender if you happen to take one without Water Access. Like the Dracolich, Bog Mummy or Keeper of the Bridge.

[Zonk]

Their religion is explictly not ALL about the cold.

Their dominion spreads cold, but indirectly as a consequence of any 4+ scale spreading outside borders and only Skratti (sacred, H1 priests) actually want cast Illwinter.

Niefel Jarls (sacred, H2 so higher level and presumably more influential) are not fans of the idea because the Rimtursar might replace them, and the Gygjas (not sacred, but influential) also don't care much for Illwinter.
BTW, I think the above is an especially nice bit of lore - it would have been very obvious and perhaps bland to make the Niefel Jarls obsessed with casting Illwinter. But they're not, and that's an interesting twist.

You don't become a Priest of this Ice nation and then fail to walk in the snow.

Indie priests are just locals who were doing their own thing and then were conquered, it's not like they were specifically trained and educated in Niefelheim's religion even before the nation conquered the province.

The fact they don't automatically get snow move is potentially thematic in its own way too - humans can worship the god of the frost giants, but that doesn't mean they automatically become better at dealing with snow and frost.
Is it harsh? Yes, but so is the freezing bite of winter. Why expect the religion of the frost giants to be especially accomodating to puny humans, even those willing to submit and worship?
As with Niefel Jarls NOT wanting Illwinter to be cast, it could be seen as an interesting twist.

Meanwhile, the Miasma of C'tis is explictly connected to the "New God" in a way that Niefelheim's cold isn't - which explains why sacred warriors that aren't natively C'tissian would be protected from it- and LA Pythium Serpent Cult grants a special ability (poison resistance) that humans, the national race, do not already have, which is actually, in a way, the opposite of what you're suggesting here (Niefelheim having as a bonus bless something that Niefel Giants/Jotun already have natively).

So I find your thematic argoments unconvincing; I think it would be better to focus on the mechanical side, and for that I think making Winter's Gift a situationally attractive bless for cold nations would make more sense than giving it for free.

[Ddraig Lleuad]

Worth remembering: You aren't playing your nation, in this game. You're playing an upstart pretender to godhood who has come to dominate a nation, driving it forward as a vehicle in your bid for ultimate power. A great many pretender gods, and the blessings they provide, are cynical ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ who don't care what 'their' nation believes. Breaking the Seal is the last thing in the world EA Agartha wants to do, but if you as a player order it, it'll happen.

So while everything Zonk says about the beliefs of Niefelheim are true, it's also worth remembering that you, as some indy sacred, absolutely do become a templar warrior or a priest in service to a pretender god of Niefelheim even if you can't walk through cold - because your service is to God and their bid for ascension, not to the people or culture of Niefelheim. Your service may not even be willing! These giants just showed up a few months back, beat up whatever passed for an army, and started demanding tribute by right of conquest! Things like this leading to tribute being partly paid in military service are far from unknown in history.

[Legowarrior]

Originally posted by Zonk:

Their religion is explictly not ALL about the cold.

Their dominion spreads cold, but indirectly as a consequence of any 4+ scale spreading outside borders and only Skratti (sacred, H1 priests) actually want cast Illwinter.

Niefel Jarls (sacred, H2 so higher level and presumably more influential) are not fans of the idea because the Rimtursar might replace them, and the Gygjas (not sacred, but influential) also don't care much for Illwinter.
BTW, I think the above is an especially nice bit of lore - it would have been very obvious and perhaps bland to make the Niefel Jarls obsessed with casting Illwinter. But they're not, and that's an interesting twist.

"The icy winds of Niefelheim cause the cold climate to expand beyond the Dominion of the Pretender God" If I take a regular nation to Cold 3, it doesn't do that. That's the power of Niefelheim spreading the cold. MA Caelum doesn't spread its cold outside the domain.

Originally posted by Zonk:

You don't become a Priest of this Ice nation and then fail to walk in the snow.

Indie priests are just locals who were doing their own thing and then were conquered, it's not like they were specifically trained and educated in Niefelheim's religion even before the nation conquered the province.

Except, indie priests are still bless by the owning nations Bless, and undead priests summon the same undead as their nation does. They require a temple to the pretender to be recruited, and the temple gets burned down (or reconsecrated) when a new Pretender takes over. That indicates that indie priests are much more then just people hanging around, ready to bless at a drop of a coin.
[/quote]

Originally posted by Zonk:

The fact they don't automatically get snow move is potentially thematic in its own way too - humans can worship the god of the frost giants, but that doesn't mean they automatically become better at dealing with snow and frost.
Is it harsh? Yes, but so is the freezing bite of winter. Why expect the religion of the frost giants to be especially accomodating to puny humans, even those willing to submit and worship?

Except, we see an example of puny humans and giants in Mekone and the Greek Giant line. We see humans unable to command giants, and giants requiring at minimum size to be in charge. That isn't part of the Frost Giant tags. If Illwinter wanted to make it so, they could have added it.

Originally posted by Zonk:

As with Niefel Jarls NOT wanting Illwinter to be cast, it could be seen as an interesting twist.

And most Mictlan citizens don't want to be sacrificed to push domain (if they did, it Blood Hunting would not be required. Just because a particular leader is against something doesn't mean its not part of the system. Illwinter is a big part of the Neifelheim journey. Similar to End of Culture by Yomi.

Originally posted by Zonk:

Meanwhile, the Miasma of C'tis is explictly connected to the "New God" in a way that Niefelheim's cold isn't - which explains why sacred warriors that aren't natively C'tissian would be protected from it- and LA Pythium Serpent Cult grants a special ability (poison resistance) that humans, the national race, do not already have, which is actually, in a way, the opposite of what you're suggesting here (Niefelheim having as a bonus bless something that Niefel Giants/Jotun already have natively).

So I find your thematic argoments unconvincing; I think it would be better to focus on the mechanical side, and for that I think making Winter's Gift a situationally attractive bless for cold nations would make more sense than giving it for free.
I think you aren't reading the text of the nation given.

For C'tis, I'm only reading that "With the coming of the New God,the swamps of C'tis have begun to spread" That is descriptive, not prescriptive and it doesn't say anything about spreading disease or reducing income. It's no different from "The Icy winds of Niefelheim cause the cold climate to expand beyond the Dominion of the Pretender God"

By the way, take a look at the Abductor (heroes are a great place for descriptive text) - "Now he follow the Awakening God, eagerly awaiting the Illwinter and the rise of Rimtursar."

Quick note - you will notice that LA Pythium doesn't have any language about why everyone gets a Poison Resistance +10 upon being blessed. It talks about cults and serpents, but it's all never indicated. And everyone gets it, from the Serpent Priest, to the theurg. Even the Renata. And that is 4 points of bless. With the added perk (and this is important to Neifelheim) of not needing to take Nature Magic on your pretender. That is a big perk, which is important to Neifelheim. Getting Winter's Gift for free means that you aren't saddled with taking Water Magic as Neifelheim.

[Zonk]

* That national description line is obsolete and should likely be removed or rewritten, since it references an old mechanic:
the national extra cold spread has been replaced by the general mechanic of scales at 4/5 spreading up to 3/4 in neighbouring provinces. This applies to everyone, non-Niefelheim with Cold 4+ will spread cold, while Niefelheim with Cold 3- won't.
So right now the extra cold spread is just a consequence of Niefelheim being very cold.

* Tjatse the Abductor's description is also obsolete - it's from Dom4, and hasn't been changed with the Jotunheim update which gave the Jarls new lore explaining why they don't really want the Illwinter.
EDIT: reported this + the national description part as obsolete text worth updating.

* The Niefel Jarls aren't just "a particular leader", they're described as "the undisputed rulers of Niefelheim".

* C'tis Miasma's effect actually scales with dominion strength - directly, as in with candles, and not indirectly with scales which can be influenced by dominion.

* LA Pythium's +poison resistance is indeed not directly explained, but it seems more thematic to me that a human religion mostly based on serpents (and c'tissians) would give its mostly-human worshippers (because humans are the default, especially in LA) poison resistance - an ability they don't naturally have - than a frost giant religion would give the occasional, rare human worshipper an ability that the giants have naturally.

It would be different if Niefelheim had lore about human cultists occasionally worshipping the Niefels, trying to invoke the Illwinter and so on - if was the case I'd agree with snow move, in fact actual cold resistance might be appropriate too. But that's not the case, Niefelheim's religion is giant-focused.

* Not sure about what you're trying to say about indie priests and Mekone humans, but note that Niefelheim doesn't have a significant human presence by lore and that while the developers could have made humans unable to lead frost giants, they could also have already given Niefelheim free snow move on all sacred (but didn't).

Getting Winter's Gift for free means that you aren't saddled with taking Water * * Magic as Neifelheim.

* Niefelheim being encouraged to have Water on its pretender seems like a GOOD thing to me - even if the cold isn't sacred, it's still an important part of the national identity, and it's nice when you're encouraged to take a pretender with national paths.

The new bless system sadly doesn't encourage this like the old one - though Niefelheim didn't have +Water bless points in Dom5.
And obviously Winter's Gift is of VERY limited identity as Niefelheim - but that's why I think it would be better to make it useful for them too (as a bless you buy) rather than make it something you get for free.

And yes, I do think it would also be nice if LA Pythium was more strongly encouraged to have Nature in its bless too. They do have many discounted Nature pretenders at least.

TL,DR: still not convinced by your thematic arguments, I'd rather make Winter Gift worth taking on cold nations than give it out for free (unless national lore actually supports it).

But I am curious to know if you think it would also be good to give Abysia +10 fire resistance; not asking you the same for Pangea and recuperation since that's an incarnate, non-resistance bless.

[anaris]

The Modding Manual still lists spreading scales as a mod command, is that also deprecated?

Worth noting: Niefelheim's story is essentially the giants schisming and leaving the smaller people in disgust right and then later the gygjas do the same right? whereas Pythium is a syncretised cosmopolitan cult.

[Legowarrior]

Originally posted by Zonk:

* That national description line is obsolete and should likely be removed or rewritten, since it references an old mechanic:
the national extra cold spread has been replaced by the general mechanic of scales at 4/5 spreading up to 3/4 in neighbouring provinces. This applies to everyone, non-Niefelheim with Cold 4+ will spread cold, while Niefelheim with Cold 3- won't.
So right now the extra cold spread is just a consequence of Niefelheim being very cold.

* Tjatse the Abductor's description is also obsolete - it's from Dom4, and hasn't been changed with the Jotunheim update which gave the Jarls new lore explaining why they don't really want the Illwinter.
EDIT: reported this + the national description part as obsolete text worth updating.

* The Niefel Jarls aren't just "a particular leader", they're described as "the undisputed rulers of Niefelheim".

* C'tis Miasma's effect actually scales with dominion strength - directly, as in with candles, and not indirectly with scales which can be influenced by dominion.

* LA Pythium's +poison resistance is indeed not directly explained, but it seems more thematic to me that a human religion mostly based on serpents (and c'tissians) would give its mostly-human worshippers (because humans are the default, especially in LA) poison resistance - an ability they don't naturally have - than a frost giant religion would give the occasional, rare human worshipper an ability that the giants have naturally.

It would be different if Niefelheim had lore about human cultists occasionally worshipping the Niefels, trying to invoke the Illwinter and so on - if was the case I'd agree with snow move, in fact actual cold resistance might be appropriate too. But that's not the case, Niefelheim's religion is giant-focused.

* Not sure about what you're trying to say about indie priests and Mekone humans, but note that Niefelheim doesn't have a significant human presence by lore and that while the developers could have made humans unable to lead frost giants, they could also have already given Niefelheim free snow move on all sacred (but didn't).

Getting Winter's Gift for free means that you aren't saddled with taking Water * * Magic as Neifelheim.

* Niefelheim being encouraged to have Water on its pretender seems like a GOOD thing to me - even if the cold isn't sacred, it's still an important part of the national identity, and it's nice when you're encouraged to take a pretender with national paths.

The new bless system sadly doesn't encourage this like the old one - though Niefelheim didn't have +Water bless points in Dom5.
And obviously Winter's Gift is of VERY limited identity as Niefelheim - but that's why I think it would be better to make it useful for them too (as a bless you buy) rather than make it something you get for free.

And yes, I do think it would also be nice if LA Pythium was more strongly encouraged to have Nature in its bless too. They do have many discounted Nature pretenders at least.

TL,DR: still not convinced by your thematic arguments, I'd rather make Winter Gift worth taking on cold nations than give it out for free (unless national lore actually supports it).

But I am curious to know if you think it would also be good to give Abysia +10 fire resistance; not asking you the same for Pangea and recuperation since that's an incarnate, non-resistance bless.

That's a lot of hand waving about things being obsolete. You can't make a claim on a nation description for MA C'tis, but on the other hand, claim that seem information is wrong for Neifelheim. Especially in terms of the Abductor, which, as you said, was in the game since Dominions 4, and was not updated by Illwinter in the last, 10 years at least? Maybe Illwinter will change it, or maybe its Cannon and we should accept it and move on.

Thematically, Neifelheim hasn't changed much since Dominions 2 (by the way, Neifelheim is available in the Dominions 2 Demo. I tried it out today). Except to be even more cold centric. Cold Recruitment was new in Dominions 5, and it wasn't applicable in Dominions 2 through 4. It seems fairly obvious to me that Cold and Ice are a huge part of the Neifelheim theme and Domain.

The whole idea of Illwinter is to be able to recruit more giants in more places!

Now, as for the comparisons to LA Pythium - keep in mind that the Serpent Priests and all the other Serpent related sacreds all have Poison Resistance already. Yes, its thematic for SERPENT PRIESTS to have poison resistance inbuilt. Even though they are human, not c'tis, and and not like Patala or C'tis has a national spell that provides Poison resistance or a bonus to the bless that does.

But I digress,

LA Pythium, a land which still has Theurges, Renatus, and Renatas as priests, is a land of many different flavors. Not all of them are Serpent Related. In fact, there are whole groups of people actively working against the Serpent Priests (in terms of Domain). And yet, every single Indie Priest, Amazon Griffon or Nightmare, Lizardman Shaman, Ichtyid Shaman, Bone Reader, Dust Priest, Mound Fiend and Bishop Fish will, when blessed, be protected from Poison. At 10 points. So, a quaint little Cult in LA Pythium spreads poison resistances, but somehow, Winter's Gift, on a nation linked so strongly with cold that it's troops require cold to be recruited and it has a spell for creating cold, is not thematic? That is an argument that I simple don't understand.

Oh and finally, Illwinter has a tag, it's called "Min Comander Size" that excludes smaller commanders from commanding big giants. Ifrit Warriors have it as well. It's a good way of showing when a nation had disdain for small Human sized leaders. Note that no Giant has that. Illwinter could have easily added it without any issues. Which they did for Mekone and for Ubar (and Illwinter has been know to add seemingly random tags to things to future proof them).

All I'm saying is that, the argument that Neifelheim cares nothing for Humans doesn't have anything really to back it up with in terms of description or abilities.
And keep in mind, Winter's Gift wouldn't just apply to indie priests, but also, Amazon Griffon or Nightmare, Lizardman Shaman, Ichtyid Shaman, Bone Reader, Dust Priest, Mound Fiend and Bishop Fish, just to list a few.

[anaris]

Zonk has, at least in the past, worked directly with the developers of the game. He is not hand-waving so much as reporting canon hahah

[Legowarrior]

Originally posted by anaris:

Zonk has, at least in the past, worked directly with the developers of the game. He is not hand-waving so much as reporting canon hahah

The number of people that have worked with Illwinter on things is numerous, and what Illwinter does with Cannon has always been a bit of a mystery to everyone, at least from what I've observed since my days on the Shrapnel Forums.

They go where their Muse takes them. That's why the huge shift in Giants having Shocking Weakness, and the changes to all the Jotens in Dominions 5. Or even the last minute addition of Muspelheim, which was all pushed forward by an argument about Fire being Weak.

[Zonk]

It's not handwaving to show that old lore used to support an argument is contradicted/obsoleted by more recent lore or mechanics.

I think we're talking in circles but I'll restate my point:
The Jotun & Niefel ability to snow-walk doesn't come from religion, it's a natural ability.
Meanwhile, LA Pythium's Serpent Cult poison resistance DOES come from religion, and it's something that humans do NOT naturally have.

A frost giant religion giving outsiders abilities the giants already have and a human religion giving everyone (which will mean "mostly humans", remember it's LA) an ability humans do not naturally have feel very different to me.

As for leader size, it's perfectly possible for the Niefel religion to not concern itself with helping humans be more comfortable on the snow but for Niefels to accept them as war leaders. The giants of Mekone are supposed to be especially proud and arrogant, the Niefel/Jotun aren't generally described that way.

If Niefelheim gets snow move as a bonus bless that's ok, it doesn't ruin my enjoyment of the game at all, at that point I might even suggest giving them cold resistance because if the religion cares about humans enough to bless with snow-walking it might also care enough (and have the metaphysical power) to prevent them from freezing to death.

But wouldn't it be cooler (pun intended) if they didn't get this for free but instead had a thematic incentive to pick Winter's Gift, which would also reward having Water as a path?
Then you'd have a meaningful choice between the current situation where your giants naturally have snow move but non-national sacreds don't, and taking Water & spending 1 point on something that will help both your frost giants and "foreign" worshippers.

It would also fit with the bless having a relatively fancy name: it is called"Winter's Gift" rather than just "Snow Move" or "Snow Walking".

It does take significant effort to come up with something appropriate since it's only a 1-point bless but I'm sure we could come up with SOMETHING.
It could even be a minor bonus that only applies to units that already have snow move.

[Uncle Al]

Originally posted by Zonk:

It could even be a minor bonus that only applies to units that already have snow move.

OK now I want winter's gift on a unit that already has snow move to give terrain survival on all snowy terrain, but that's a little strong...

Certainly I'm in the camp that taking things like CR and winter's gift as Niefelheim should be options, but not inherent to the nation. It's a choice, and fits with a strategy where you plan to use a lot of non-national sacreds, or use shrouds as a convenient way not to have your own giants' chill auras massacre an indie mage corps.

Equally, taking mountain survival as Niefelheim is a niche but interesting option. The niefel giants and jarls have it anyway, but the smaller Jotun don't, and having your godes and jotun jarls able to lead niefel armies without slowing them down can be quite useful. Doesn't mean mountain survival should be inherent to the nation's bless, though.

[Zonk]

The only Niefelheim recruitable with mountain survival is the scout, actually. Niefel Giants don't have it.
It's strange since glaciers are associated with mountains and the mythological Jotunheim is sometimes described as mountainous.
There is even a real-world mountain range called Jotunheim in Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jotunheimen
IMO it would make sense if all Niefel and Jotun giants had mountain survival.

To get back to Winter Gift helping units that already have snow move: what if it made these units move faster on snow instead of just being unhindered?
Normally snow gives +1 MM cost per "half step" (so +2 per full province) and snow move removes this.
Perhaps snow move + winter gift could turn the +1 cost into a -1, so -2 MM cost per full province?
For reference, roads are -2/-4 MM cost for half/full province (but they can't lower cost below 2/4), and crossing non-hostile plains completely takes 6 MM.

So snow move + winter gift would make crossing a snowy plain take 4 instead of 6 MM.
Which might actually still be too good. Maybe make it -1 per full step instead?