It feels too hard to conquer fortresses

[Demonsthenes]

This may be my biases coming from Dominions 5, but it feels to me that forts are too hard to siege, given the combination of the new gate guards (who seem awesome!) and increased wall defense.

Looking at the math of it ... In Dominions 5, an army of 250 siege strength (e.g. 250 crossbows -- quite a force to accumulate!) can break the walls on the Bogarus Citadel capital in 4 turns, even if there's a moderate amount of troops inside. In Dominions 6, that same army only does about 130 wall damage a turn against a 1500 defense fortress -- and will take a dozen turns to crack the gate open (realistically, you're going to reinforce it by then!).

Even if we scale the army up to 375 siege strength worth of troops, one only does about 270 wall damage a turn it will take 6 turns to break down a 1500 siege defense citadel even with no recruited units inside.

Meanwhile the new combination of Iron Walls and Immaculate Walls means that even an army of 1000 siege strength trying to take an empty buffed Citadel would only do 400 siege damage a turn against 3500 defense - so something like a 10 turn siege.

Especially with Crumble only doing 300 wall damage, I think this makes it too easy to defend infrastructure without committing any recruited units to fighting battles. But mainly I noticed this because in single player, I brought several turns' recruitment of my full scales Phlegran army to the enemy capital on turn 15, killed the PD ... and then didn't do any wall damage at all, and did the math that I couldn't attempt storming it for at least 8 turns while I marched every unit I'd made to siege it down and waited.

[ncarr99]

Fortresses are also a lot more expensive than they used to be. A palisade is 1000 gold where it used to be 600, with corresponding increases to upgrade costs. Maybe the idea is that forts are harder to take but there also won't be quite as many of them?

Or if not, I do remember reading that one of the goals in Dom 6 was to balance the game such that armies will be larger, so maybe long-term the increased army sizes will balance out the increased defenses?

[Firemad]

Originally posted by ncarr99:

Fortresses are also a lot more expensive than they used to be. A palisade is 1000 gold where it used to be 600, with corresponding increases to upgrade costs. Maybe the idea is that forts are harder to take but there also won't be quite as many of them?

Or if not, I do remember reading that one of the goals in Dom 6 was to balance the game such that armies will be larger, so maybe long-term the increased army sizes will balance out the increased defenses?

Well it's strange that the palissade cost more then a fortress ?

I don't mind the 1000 gold for palissade but the upgrade is far less ... I can't remember 300-600 gold ? It seem illogical that a palissade cost more then a fortress to build... lol

[zenblack]

The issue here is that the corresponding increase in army size doesn't match the fortification points. It seems between 15-20% too high even if the design goal is to have unmanned fortifications having a grace period.

[Sombre]

Originally posted by Firemad:

Well it's strange that the palissade cost more then a fortress ?

I don't mind the 1000 gold for palissade but the upgrade is far less ... I can't remember 300-600 gold ? It seem illogical that a palissade cost more then a fortress to build... lol

It costs less to upgrade from A to B than build A, not less to build B than A.

[ncarr99]

Originally posted by Firemad:

Originally posted by ncarr99:

Fortresses are also a lot more expensive than they used to be. A palisade is 1000 gold where it used to be 600, with corresponding increases to upgrade costs. Maybe the idea is that forts are harder to take but there also won't be quite as many of them?

Or if not, I do remember reading that one of the goals in Dom 6 was to balance the game such that armies will be larger, so maybe long-term the increased army sizes will balance out the increased defenses?

Well it's strange that the palissade cost more then a fortress ?

I don't mind the 1000 gold for palissade but the upgrade is far less ... I can't remember 300-600 gold ? It seem illogical that a palissade cost more then a fortress to build... lol

You're right from a "story" perspective, but from a gameplay perspective it makes sense. A palisade gives you a fortified position that protects provinces from raids, the ability to recruit national troops and mages, doubles the province resources and draws additional resources from every adjacent provinces, and increases recruitment points. Meanwhile a fortress give 1 extra commander point and otherwise is the exact same as a palisade but slightly better.

In other words the new stuff you get from a palisade is worth more than the new stuff you get from a fortress.

[Lucid]

Yeah agree with demonsthenese here. I think the increase in wall strength alone is fine or the increase in seige defense alone is fine, but they are probably too much when combined together.

[Sombre]

It is worth noting summon draconians is now extremely good in terms of siege stuff.

[318]

i like it

[Firemad]

Originally posted by ncarr99:

Originally posted by Firemad:

Well it's strange that the palissade cost more then a fortress ?

I don't mind the 1000 gold for palissade but the upgrade is far less ... I can't remember 300-600 gold ? It seem illogical that a palissade cost more then a fortress to build... lol

You're right from a "story" perspective, but from a gameplay perspective it makes sense. A palisade gives you a fortified position that protects provinces from raids, the ability to recruit national troops and mages, doubles the province resources and draws additional resources from every adjacent provinces, and increases recruitment points. Meanwhile a fortress give 1 extra commander point and otherwise is the exact same as a palisade but slightly better.

In other words the new stuff you get from a palisade is worth more than the new stuff you get from a fortress.

Thanks for the explanation. It's making sense as a game perspective.

Well I'm more an intermediate player but I hope they mix together the story logic with the game logic better. Maybe split and add more resources on the fortress side to give an incentive to upgrade.

I mean in real life palisade cost less to build then a big fortress so the expectation coming from other game was like: ok I should get bigger bonus and it will cost more for a fortress as a gaming logic.

It was feeling strange to see the big cost difference :) but I understand it's more like 1000 + whatever the cost for a fortress in total.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

TBH a capital fort *should* be hard to take down by an army you can put together by turn 15. its not like you're in a bad position, they are completely crippled while you're sieging them that early.

I'll note Summon Cave Grubs gets you like 120+ siege strength for 5 earth gems. Needs a cave.

[Necroscourge]

There's a few ways to bypass the defenses in battle such as ethrealness, I believe there's a climbing spell, flying units (also a spell) and such can get you pas tit. units with Trample can get you through the door easily and allow your infantry to flood in.

[Energist]

Originally posted by Firemad:

Originally posted by ncarr99:

Fortresses are also a lot more expensive than they used to be. A palisade is 1000 gold where it used to be 600, with corresponding increases to upgrade costs. Maybe the idea is that forts are harder to take but there also won't be quite as many of them?

Or if not, I do remember reading that one of the goals in Dom 6 was to balance the game such that armies will be larger, so maybe long-term the increased army sizes will balance out the increased defenses?

Well it's strange that the palissade cost more then a fortress ?

I don't mind the 1000 gold for palissade but the upgrade is far less ... I can't remember 300-600 gold ? It seem illogical that a palissade cost more then a fortress to build... lol

A fortress costs (1000 + the upgrade cost) a palisade only costs 1000.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Firemad:

Originally posted by ncarr99:

You're right from a "story" perspective, but from a gameplay perspective it makes sense. A palisade gives you a fortified position that protects provinces from raids, the ability to recruit national troops and mages, doubles the province resources and draws additional resources from every adjacent provinces, and increases recruitment points. Meanwhile a fortress give 1 extra commander point and otherwise is the exact same as a palisade but slightly better.

In other words the new stuff you get from a palisade is worth more than the new stuff you get from a fortress.

Thanks for the explanation. It's making sense as a game perspective.

Well I'm more an intermediate player but I hope they mix together the story logic with the game logic better. Maybe split and add more resources on the fortress side to give an incentive to upgrade.

I mean in real life palisade cost less to build then a big fortress so the expectation coming from other game was like: ok I should get bigger bonus and it will cost more for a fortress as a gaming logic.

It was feeling strange to see the big cost difference :) but I understand it's more like 1000 + whatever the cost for a fortress in total.

I think what you’re getting hung up on is the names given to palisade and fort, and I get why-the names suggest that the former is a dinky, temporary thing, while the latter is not.

It would make sense to think of them more as fort level 1 and fort level 2. Mechanically, the costs make sense for what you get at each level, although the names don’t match that very well.

[Mormacil]

Originally posted by Firemad:

Originally posted by ncarr99:

You're right from a "story" perspective, but from a gameplay perspective it makes sense. A palisade gives you a fortified position that protects provinces from raids, the ability to recruit national troops and mages, doubles the province resources and draws additional resources from every adjacent provinces, and increases recruitment points. Meanwhile a fortress give 1 extra commander point and otherwise is the exact same as a palisade but slightly better.

In other words the new stuff you get from a palisade is worth more than the new stuff you get from a fortress.

Thanks for the explanation. It's making sense as a game perspective.

Well I'm more an intermediate player but I hope they mix together the story logic with the game logic better. Maybe split and add more resources on the fortress side to give an incentive to upgrade.

I mean in real life palisade cost less to build then a big fortress so the expectation coming from other game was like: ok I should get bigger bonus and it will cost more for a fortress as a gaming logic.

It was feeling strange to see the big cost difference :) but I understand it's more like 1000 + whatever the cost for a fortress in total.

The largest fortification in history was pallisades and earthwalls. Complex multi story wooden fortifications with moats, battlements and towers were pretty common in history.