Twiceborn

[Welzi]

Hi mates!
Just read in the manual that twiceborning is not possible anymore for demons and pretenders. That's sad. I understand the decision for plants, undead (obviously and as in previous Dominions) as well as for inanimates but especially denying it for pretenders kills a bit of the fun in the game and is imho not a good decision.
Cheers

[Mormacil]

I haven't checked but I think you're supposed to make them liches instead?

[DasaKamov]

Thematically, "Twiceborn" is a (somewhat desperate) way for mortals to stave off death, so it would stand to reason that it wouldn't work on immortal/non-material beings.

Mechanically, it permanently transforms the base creature into a wight, so you likely wouldn't want to have your pretender trapped into that form for eternity, anyway. ;)

[Welzi]

@Mormacil: Thanks, will check that.

@DasKamov: Well I had good experiences and fun with twiceborned pretenders in previous dominions. I really like the concept.

With regard to demons: Remember the description of bone fiends:" They are believed to be the remains of dead devils bound by the law of death. 'That is not dead which eternal lies, and with countless aeons even devils die'." So lore wise it would make sense that devils (and pretenders imho) can twiceborn and become undead.

That said, thanks for your inputs both of you. Cheers

[Mormacil]

Bone Fiends are the reanimated remains of devils, not the essense of devils. To extrapolate that to a pretender, you get their body but not their status as a pretender.

[Welzi]

Well the point is that also devils die and what dies sould have the meta to be able to return as undead. By the way, Lichcraft does not work on pretenders either...

[Mormacil]

Ah shame.

As for my point, the body can be brought back but if that isn't tied to the soul/essence it doesn't have the properties of the pretender.

[Welzi]

I see it differently. Sure you can animate the remains of bodies to get skellies but the twiceborn ritual needed a soul of a living mage to bring it back in a dead body if I remember correctly. Thus you could also soul slay a mage to obstruct him from twiceborn. So it was not the body animated but the returning of the very mage / soul twice borned before and that would imho make absolute sense to work for a pretender or for demons to.

[Mormacil]

I'm saying that devils and pretenders don't adhere to the same rules as others. So you're right for most but for devils, undead and pretenders others but still consistent rules apply.

[Welzi]

PS: Twiceborn was sometimes a nice way to (increase chances to) preserve a pretender or a demon lord for dangerous key battles. Furthermore the transform/twiceborn meta was really fun eventually too. Both cease to function in Dominions 6 at least for those characters which seems sad and a step back in this regard - at least for me - from previous Dominions. Cheers

[Welzi]

Originally posted by Mormacil:

I'm saying that devils and pretenders don't adhere to the same rules as others. So you're right for most but for devils, undead and pretenders others but still consistent rules apply.

Sorry just saw your reply mate. Well for undead (already dead) and inanimates (no soul) as well as plants (special) that makes intuitively sense. For demons and pretenders well it's a design decision it seems as least imho. And if it reduces the fun then it is - at least for me - a bad decision. That's at least my opinion. Cheers