Please Fix Fire Magic

[Blants]

Fire magic still sucks incredibly hard. It's way too niche (muh evocations) in a way that's way too easy to counter (fire protection is ridiculously abundant (alteration, blesses), and the damage isn't AN like lightning tends to be). At this point it's always better to just mindlessly spam fire elementals rather than bother doing anything else with fire magic.

Please make it so fire magic either has more utility in line with the other paths of magic (a shoutout here to give water a hand too) with more spells in other schools, better summons, better forging, or make it so fire magic is actually a force to be reckoned with when it comes to evocations and isn't getting humiliated by air magic, either by boosting the damage/viability of fire magic, or adding ways to make it more useful through other spells.

Also, what's up with fire magic reducing the max age of mages? I don't think any other magic path has a downside associated with it, but fire does for no reason.

[Maerlande]

Originally posted by Blants:

In terms of summons, it has always sucked that Fire never had any dragons or phoenixes (phoenices?). I know they probably wouldn't help much in terms of dealing non-fire damage, but they are cool and shouldn't really need much more justification.

Yeah, I know that you can get them both as pretenders, but I think they could fill cool niches as a "lesser version" summon. Kind of like how you can summon liches while also having the Master/demilich pretenders.

Neat. Big ass fire summons would be cool.

[crawlers]

I have nothing against more summons, but take note that those two are likely to have the same problem that fire path has in general of being more countered by/having less of an answer to fire resistant things than other paths are against their own resistances.

[Finest]

Originally posted by Blants:

Originally posted by crawlers:

Giving fire some useful buffs (e.g. increasing attack skill, morale or awe seem like pretty "fire" things to do), summons that don't just deal fire damage, better forging options to open it up to thugging more, or plenty of other options would really go a long way in terms of making to feel like it's on the same level as the other paths. I don't want to see it be the best in every magic school, but for it to have some reliable backup options worth investing in if evocations don't pan out would go a long way for fire.

I agree, I would love it if Fire got some useful buffs that aren't just doing damage. A spell to increase Attack Skill/Morale would do wonders to the path, a Enchantment spell that gave a number of units Fire Shield would also be great.

[Perro Grande]

Originally posted by Draken:

@crawlers

Just checked and fire effects apart from dealing fire damage:

Buffs: Fire and Cold resistance.
Debuffs: Rage, Blindness.
Rituals: Turning fire gems into gold, curing disease(caster only, deals damage).

Those are the pure fire paths. Cross paths also give you:

With Water: Acid
With Astral: Anti-Undead explosion on death, Darkness, Astral Fires.
With Earth: Magma (high blunt damage)
With Death: Bane-Fire
With Air: Poison (Sulfur Haze)
With Nature: Disease
With Blood: Direct Damage (Blood Boil)

Edit: I didn't check the summons.

Also you forgot setting things on fire, which is 1dSIZE damage that ignores everything I think every round which is ok. I wonder how it works in Dom 6 if any beta testers want to tell us if it is still 1dSIZE ignore damage.

[Zonk]

Originally posted by amuys:

Falling Fires and Fireball are a lot stronger now

Fireball (still Evo 3, F2) now leaves a small lingering cloud on the affected square and the secondary AoE 6 is no longer fatigue but REAL damage (8 AP).
It feels pretty strong and will likely be very significant against troops with less than heavy armor and no fire resist.

[Jakob]

Honestly, I'd be happy with Illwinter reworking or nixing elemental magic altogether. Be it fireballs or thunderbolts, differently colored numbers isn't all that interesting at the end of the day, and having a large variety of damage types excacerbates the hardcounter problem that dominions have.

As for fire magic as is, part of the problem is that there are precious few nations with spammable fire combat mages (and no good ones). F2 or S1F1 are both strong combat paths because Fire Power/Fire Elementals in numbers mulch everything that isn't specifically tailored sacreds or kitted thugs, but apart from Abysia, EA Ermor and LA Erytheia they only tend to occur on wide StR mages or SC chassi. F1 is plentiful on cheaper mages, but is arguably even more useless than any other 1-of path except S and B.

[Sombre]

Originally posted by Jakob:

Honestly, I'd be happy with Illwinter reworking or nixing elemental magic altogether. Be it fireballs or thunderbolts, differently colored numbers isn't all that interesting at the end of the day, and having a large variety of damage types excacerbates the hardcounter problem that dominions have.

What's the hardcounter problem?

[Mormacil]

Originally posted by Jakob:

Honestly, I'd be happy with Illwinter reworking or nixing elemental magic altogether. Be it fireballs or thunderbolts, differently colored numbers isn't all that interesting at the end of the day, and having a large variety of damage types excacerbates the hardcounter problem that dominions have.

As for fire magic as is, part of the problem is that there are precious few nations with spammable fire combat mages (and no good ones). F2 or S1F1 are both strong combat paths because Fire Power/Fire Elementals in numbers mulch everything that isn't specifically tailored sacreds or kitted thugs, but apart from Abysia, EA Ermor and LA Erytheia they only tend to occur on wide StR mages or SC chassi. F1 is plentiful on cheaper mages, but is arguably even more useless than any other 1-of path except S and B.

But you can't spam elementals that easily anymore and elementals are smaller in size so they can't trample everything anymore, that's ignoring the fact ethereal elementals *also* do less trample damage.

But I'm not quite sure what you're aiming for here. Personally I find elemental summons significantly more boring than elemental evocations.

[Sombre]

Fire elementals have never trampled. They attack directly and use their fire shield to do damage.

[Legowarrior]

Fire does seem to be easy to shut down. Your opponent just need Water, Fire or Earth Magic, and they have a pretty strong counter to Fire.

Anyway, I do hope we get some Fire Giants Summons (also, I hope we get some way to summon large groups of Mountain/Forest/Fire Giants).

[Feikki]

The hard counter problem for fire magic is that either a spell that gives a moderate amount of fire resist or an item makes you practically immune to fire magic.

You basically either deal fire damage or summon fire elemental that also does fire damage. Buffs, phoenix pyre, fire shield? Also do fire damage. Phoenix pyre can still be good buff even if he opponent has fire resist but still.

Generally buffs cannot be countered by elemental resist. Fire has a lack of buffs and many of them just generate fire damage. Quickness etc are not countered by resist cold.

[Red_Rob]

Fire currently has the double whammy of being very one-note with too many things that are varieties of dealing Fire damage, and being quite evocation focused whilst its evo's are a bit weak. They don't ignore armor or stun targets like Lightning evocations or numb/freeze targets with a powerful debuff like Water ones, only set people on fire (see the previous Everything Is Fire Damage problem). Buffing the evocations with more damage & larger area would be nice, perhaps the niche for Fire spells could be massive aoe to wipe away chaff as compared with Lightning that hits single targets for high damage?

Currently Fire already has a bunch of other effects in its wheelhouse, such as the following:

Creating Light - including Blinding Light & Awe
"Lighting a fire in the heart" - Morale boosts & Rage/Berserk
Warmth & comfort of the hearth fire
Calling the Sun & sunlight
Alchemy & gold
Rebirth & purifying flames

These could be explored to give fire more varied effects, or some spells could be moved from their existing paths and given to Fire if they fit there. Currently Fire can get Awe as a bless, but there is no buff spell that gives a unit of soldiers Awe. The only way to light darkness or alleviate cave penalties is in Astral and also blinds everyone - with the addition of a cave layer that could be a niche for Fire. Inspiring valour is a currently a Holy path thing, but a Fire spell that grants the army greatly increased morale could be really useful and help to counter spells like Wailing Winds or Blood Rain. Growing Fury is currently in N but I could see a F version, or perhaps a negative version that drives an enemy army into a mindless rage where they can attack each other. Astral gets a battiefield version of Enslave Mind, why can't Fire get a bit of love with a battlefield Rage?

Summoning the sun has thematically been an anti-undead thing in several stories, perhaps a spell that debuffs all undead in the battle would be cool. Currently Wither Bones is the best undead counter meaning to beat Death magic you need... Death magic. Wouldn't the best counter to Death being the live-giving Sun be more thematic, and also support Marignon going so strongly into Fire when confronted by Ermor?

Powerful summons like an immortal phoenix or dragon would also be neat. People turning into dragons through greed was a theme in some myths, that could be a neat Fire ritual (perhaps that also consumes a large quantity of gold?).

Of course it could be that Fire has already got a bunch of additions in Dom6, in which case we can all rest easy. Or maybe with the larger armies and more focus on troop engagements suddenly having a bunch of evos will be super powerful. But I do think Fire could do with a more varied toolkit, if only to make it more interesting in play and harder to counter.

[Zonk]

Awe is Glamour/Fire, for both the bless and buff spells.
Blindness spell still exists and requires only Fire (and maybe there could be better versions).

However, there will be non-crosspath Fire spells to give attack and morale bonuses to troops.

[Legowarrior]

I think a Fire Giant idea might be helpful. Basically, the same concept as a Hill or Forest Giant, but with a great big sword, heavy armor, Heat Aura and Fire Power.
It would give Fire some non-Fire Damage summon (provided Summons are worth while in Dominions 6).

One idea might be to give Fire Quicken instead of Water. Water would retain Slow though.

[Sombre]

Originally posted by Legowarrior:

I think a Fire Giant idea might be helpful. Basically, the same concept as a Hill or Forest Giant, but with a great big sword, heavy armor, Heat Aura and Fire Power.
It would give Fire some non-Fire Damage summon (provided Summons are worth while in Dominions 6).

One idea might be to give Fire Quicken instead of Water. Water would retain Slow though.

I agree, a generic fire giant commander and generic fire giant troops would be nice.