Some testing on various classes and damage

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

So I was curious on where certain classes stand on dps that to me seem to fill the same role, IE the Woodcutter and Spearmen as well as the matchlocks vs the archers, I tested all of these roles against the first boss.

The results after a few tests the time to kill the boss went as followed on average:
Woodcutters 1:44
Spearmen: 1:58
Bowmen: Fail with priestess dying with boss just under half health at 2:16
Matchlock: 3:13 with priestess almost dying

Now this isn't to say anything definitive, while my tests do show that the woodcutters seem to do better in raw dps the test doesn't really play on the strengths of the range the spear has, if I have a defensive gate available I'd bet the spearmen have the advantage of being able to attack from behind the defenses but I haven't been able to actually test that much yet.

As well something interesting to note about the matchlock is that when the boss kicked the rocks toward them their bullets actually blocked and destroyed the rocks so it didn't hurt them, not sure really how useful that is but was definitely interesting, and I know that while they do more dps their slower RoF means smaller flying seethe might overwhelm them so its probably a good idea to keep at least one or two archers for rapid fire killing even though I find the match locks pretty good at keeping up the rate of fire as well.

Let me know your guy's thoughts.

[Zheppon]

is the testing using the highest upgrade possible ?

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by SweetGula:

is the testing using the highest upgrade possible ?

Yes I gave all 4 units full upgrades, and used 4 of each for the boss.

Odd thing is In one test I did actually test the woodcutters without the final upgrade and they actually killed it faster without but that was only one test, it could all come down to the luck of the attack patterns of the boss as well.

[REhorror]

Cutterchads united!

[Draconic Creature]

Woodcutters can do some serious work when positioned well, for sure.

[JPM岩]

It makes sense for woodcutters to be high DPS. It's just that Bowmen out purpose them in normal missions simply because the increased range, matched with high damage, and the ability to target fliers, makes them better in most situations.

[hewittlemming]

A note about Woodcutters, if you're the type of guy that like to put them in front of the Gates, they'll basically kill themselves at max level. Honestly I found that just not picking the last upgrade for them to be the better option.

[Draconic Creature]

Originally posted by JPM岩:

It makes sense for woodcutters to be high DPS. It's just that Bowmen out purpose them in normal missions simply because the increased range, matched with high damage, and the ability to target fliers, makes them better in most situations.

Eeeeh, archers fall off pretty quick and end up in more of an an anti-air role for specifically small seethe as their damage isn't high enough to deal with most ground-based fodder fast enough, woodcutters meanwhile can do some incredible work with relatively minor support in the right places.

[Draconic Creature]

Originally posted by hewittlemming:

A note about Woodcutters, if you're the type of guy that like to put them in front of the Gates, they'll basically kill themselves at max level. Honestly I found that just not picking the last upgrade for them to be the better option.

Use them for the smaller gates, usually they mainly spit out smaller enemies which woodcutters can shred with impunity, and you can position them basically on the gates because small gates do not have this miasma field.

Basically, sumo for major gates for the CC, woodcutters for small gates.

[archonsod]

Originally posted by Googley Eye'd Bastard:

Now this isn't to say anything definitive, while my tests do show that the woodcutters seem to do better in raw dps the test doesn't really play on the strengths of the range the spear has, if I have a defensive gate available I'd bet the spearmen have the advantage of being able to attack from behind the defenses but I haven't been able to actually test that much yet.

It's the nature of the test. Spearmen actually have higher damage than woodcutters but a slower attack. Against a boss, particularly the first boss given it doesn't do anything special, the woodcutters win out simply because they'll make almost twice as many attacks. It's slightly different when up against regular Seethe; the spearman will one shot the weaker Seethe and can keep the bigger ones at bay due to their prodding range, axemen on the other hand need to get up close and take two hits to take out even the weaker Seethe, which often means they're exposed to far more attacks in return.

Originally posted by JPM岩:

It makes sense for woodcutters to be high DPS. It's just that Bowmen out purpose them in normal missions simply because the increased range, matched with high damage, and the ability to target fliers, makes them better in most situations.

They're slower attackers, prone to miss and can easily be stunlocked if an enemy gets in close.

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by archonsod:

Originally posted by Googley Eye'd Bastard:

Now this isn't to say anything definitive, while my tests do show that the woodcutters seem to do better in raw dps the test doesn't really play on the strengths of the range the spear has, if I have a defensive gate available I'd bet the spearmen have the advantage of being able to attack from behind the defenses but I haven't been able to actually test that much yet.

It's the nature of the test. Spearmen actually have higher damage than woodcutters but a slower attack. Against a boss, particularly the first boss given it doesn't do anything special, the woodcutters win out simply because they'll make almost twice as many attacks. It's slightly different when up against regular Seethe; the spearman will one shot the weaker Seethe and can keep the bigger ones at bay due to their prodding range, axemen on the other hand need to get up close and take two hits to take out even the weaker Seethe, which often means they're exposed to far more attacks in return.

I did see that the spears do more damage per hit than the cutters, big issue I've seen is that the spearmen will run outside the barrier to get hit, maybe if I use the lock down ability so they stay stationary it would help.

Also the woodcutters seem to be a lot better at actually chasing the stray seethe down, so even if the spearmen are better, it is good to keep a wood cutter or two if you have a few holes in your line.

Originally posted by JPM岩:

It makes sense for woodcutters to be high DPS. It's just that Bowmen out purpose them in normal missions simply because the increased range, matched with high damage, and the ability to target fliers, makes them better in most situations.

They're slower attackers, prone to miss and can easily be stunlocked if an enemy gets in close.

I do really like the matchlocks far more than the bowmen, their way stronger, the bullet flies faster and thus is more accurate at longer ranged, and they seem tankier.

[Reizie]

Bowmen are very good for wave clearing small enemies but require a certain amount depending on the horde size. In the early NG+ stages I can block a small/side gate with 3 archers and 1 spearman for larger sized enemies with stagger meter.

Relying on too much melee will fall short when swarms of small flying enemies overwhelm your frontline and stunlock them with the screeching attack giving all your melee villagers perpetual headaches which require you to free them manually, having only 1-2 archers isn't enough to keep the skies clear in NG+.

[Draconic Creature]

Originally posted by Reizie:

Bowmen are very good for wave clearing small enemies but require a certain amount depending on the horde size. In the early NG+ stages I can block a small/side gate with 3 archers and 1 spearman for larger sized enemies with stagger meter.

Relying on too much melee will fall short when swarms of small flying enemies overwhelm your frontline and stunlock them with the screeching attack giving all your melee villagers perpetual headaches which require you to free them manually, having only 1-2 archers isn't enough to keep the skies clear in NG+.

Fully upgraded Ascetics can help a ton in keeping skies clear as their slowing AOE also does some damage with the last upgrade, which is enough to one-shot any flying seethe in its radius.

They can't handle everything though, but a cannoneer should clear things up nicely whenever things get clumped up.
There's also the option of contributing to the defense yourself too, bailing out fronts and such and saving on manpower a bit.

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by Reizie:

Bowmen are very good for wave clearing small enemies but require a certain amount depending on the horde size. In the early NG+ stages I can block a small/side gate with 3 archers and 1 spearman for larger sized enemies with stagger meter.

Relying on too much melee will fall short when swarms of small flying enemies overwhelm your frontline and stunlock them with the screeching attack giving all your melee villagers perpetual headaches which require you to free them manually, having only 1-2 archers isn't enough to keep the skies clear in NG+.

variety is key this is true, but so far I've found the matchlock far superior over the bows, i think it actually has higher range, tested it on the boat mission and with 2 matchlocks on each boat with an extra on the front and back of the main boat I literally didn't have to do anything in the fight.

Also don't discount the thief in certain battles, some missions like the ones where the priestess is incapacitated and you need to farm crystals his ability to grab extra crystals is very useful, of course you also need to be able to field enough soldiers to cover the all your areas and thats more important in the end but keep it in mind.

[Draconic Creature]

Originally posted by Googley Eye'd Bastard:

Originally posted by Reizie:

Bowmen are very good for wave clearing small enemies but require a certain amount depending on the horde size. In the early NG+ stages I can block a small/side gate with 3 archers and 1 spearman for larger sized enemies with stagger meter.

Relying on too much melee will fall short when swarms of small flying enemies overwhelm your frontline and stunlock them with the screeching attack giving all your melee villagers perpetual headaches which require you to free them manually, having only 1-2 archers isn't enough to keep the skies clear in NG+.

variety is key this is true, but so far I've found the matchlock far superior over the bows, i think it actually has higher range, tested it on the boat mission and with 2 matchlocks on each boat with an extra on the front and back of the main boat I literally didn't have to do anything in the fight.

Also don't discount the thief in certain battles, some missions like the ones where the priestess is incapacitated and you need to farm crystals his ability to grab extra crystals is very useful, of course you also need to be able to field enough soldiers to cover the all your areas and thats more important in the end but keep it in mind.

Unless you're on a map with very dense swarms of small flying seethe, flintlocks do tend to be more useful for their ability to handily deal with medium and large flying seethe from a distance, especially if they're placed on towers.

I use the thief a lot for their crystal gathering capabilities myself, when in more widespread maps, and if I can spare a villager for it they pair very well with a ninja, which likes to teleport around to take on more dangerous enemies, like the mortar ones, sword guys, the like, and usually either kill them or keep them occupied long enough that you can come on over at some point and finish them off yourself.


Also, for small gates, two woodcutters and one ascetic usually does really, really well if it's a mostly ground-based gate. Side gates usually don't spit out large enemies until much later stages so they can lock it down pretty handily on their own with little intervention, and because of side gates not emitting miasma, you can have the woodcutters right up against the entrance, which has them wailing on enemies the instant the invulnerability from spawning wears off and preventing them from building up in number.
The ascetic meanwhile helps in that they slow down the enemies that don't immediately die so that the woodcutters can go about their day hacking them to bits, and with the final upgrade to ascetics they will also constantly take out small flying seethe every time they pop it.

[MINUANO GAMING]

Bowmen are absolutely busted. Use the tsuba gard that buffs units and they melt anything in 30 seconds flat