Is the AI still cheating?

[Radioactive]

I have currently little to no interest in competitive multiplayer on this title, but I thought I might like to play a bit vs AI.

Since the game is on sale now, I was wondering if the AI is still cheating as badly as it did on the inital release date? Especially, does it still see the entire map?

[Beryll Argent]

The AI can't see anything that its units do not have visual on, but it definitely does get a bonus to initial command points and gain of command points.
Well, it is part of the game's program, so there is not truly such thing as not knowing, but it ignores anything that it cannot see and will not bombard you from across the map right in the beginning.

This does not make up for the fact that you are capable of thought and the AI is not, but it also does not really create interesting battles - The AI simply tries to rush your initial command zone with superior numbers.

[Dealman]

Originally posted by Tecuani:

The AI can't see anything that its units do not have visual on

Sorry, but this is not true.

I've had helicopters on standby back in my base and every time the AI keeps sending in fighters to deal with my idle helicopters.

The AI is very, very fast in spitting out fighters the second you get an air unit on the field. The AI is not affected by line of sight in the same way players are - this goes for nearly all RTS games.

That said, I think the AI in Wargame is pretty damn good. Obviously the AI will need some sort of handicap, because after all - it's not human.

Considering the complexity of the game, and how difficult it is to program intelligent AI, I think Eugen has done a wonderful job.

[Radioactive]

Thanks for your responses so far!

I'm still not sure how badly and how exactly the AI cheats, though.

Looking through a bunch of the forum posts from the past, I found out that difficulty modifies starting capital and income and unit reinforcement limits for the AI (but fortunately, it doesn't seem like it has infinite resources in any case).

But I found little specifics about how much the AI cheats apart from the income / starting money handicap in the current version, if at all.

Originally posted by Dealman the Provocator:

The AI is not affected by line of sight in the same way players are - this goes for nearly all RTS games.

So, does the AI play with a revealed map? Or does it now just react superhumanly quickly in sending out fighters upon spotting potential targets?

More generally, does the AI actually need to scout and establish LoS and only then calls in / re-routes forces as appropriate like the player does? Or does it again do the ALB thing and just know everything?

Not all RTS handle this the same way at all.

[Mack Yuu]

Originally posted by Radioactive:

So, does the AI play with a revealed map? Or does it now just react superhumanly quickly in sending out fighters upon spotting potential targets?

More generally, does the AI actually need to scout and establish LoS and only then calls in / re-routes forces as appropriate like the player does? Or does it again do the ALB thing and just know everything?

...Both?

The enemy guns cannot attack what they cannot see, but the enemy knows where your units are even if it cannot see them, if that makes sense. To my knowledge, it doesn't use Fire on Position commands, so it must "see" your unit to attack it, even with arty/airstrikes, but it will not hesitate to do so upon "seeing" it, and once it knows it has a chance to do so (because, again, it knows where all your units are) it will attempt to accomplish this in the most expedient way possible.

The weird exception to this is helicopters. The AI loves calling in air superiority fighters to attack helicopters, sometimes even if they're way behind your AAA net. Of course, this can be exploited to rack up lots of air kills on your part, but it's still kind of frustrating at times.

As others have pointed out, and I must reiterate, the computer gets an enormous bonus on starting command points, regardless of whatever the pre-battle rundown tells you. In the "Medium" difficulty campaign (Bear vs. Dragon, I think?), I've seen the AI deploy several hundred points more worth of tanks at the start than the computer had access to. And these are T-80s...while you're running around with Chinese reserves. Or, in naval battles, where CIWS is basically the only way to succeed, the computer will start with their 500 point destroyer and a support fleet, and you're struggling to get your shambly defenses shored up, eliminating the last vestiges of tactical play.

Fun times.

Furthermore, another carryover from ALB seems to be that, when it can, not only will the enemy know where you deployed, but what you deployed, and it will tailor its unit composition to hard counter everything you deploy, rather than play to the strengths of its deck. This, too, can be somewhat abused. I've found that deploying only a few light vehicles and maybe a helicopter or two to start with, then calling everything in once the battle starts, will put the AI in this weird position where it can't call in all of its hard counters, and it makes battles a little bit easier in the long run, even if it means jockeying for position at the get-go.

[antimike1976]

In the campaigns againt the AI in Red Dragon, I reckon the AI doesn't know where your units sit without recon. It will deploy towards a command zone you control and it remembers any unit it spots. Since it has so many extra deployment points, it can spam out whatever counter it needs for whatever unit it spots (for the most part, sometimes it takes a little longer for it to get what it needs). The AI will also hunt for units that it sees, pretty annoying if you've got a lone unit someplace and it gets exposed.

As Kevin mentioned, though, you can exploit the AI tendancy to hunt by exposing some unit and hoping the AI takes the bait.

In all the campaigns, I've never had the AI fire indirectly on a unit that hasn't been exposed at some point. The AI would be mighty annoying if it used blind counter-battery fire, like most humans use (if it's part of their plan). Interestingly, since the AI only ever uses artillery or mortars when it can see one of your units, it's always using corrected shots -- so the AI always seems to be very accurate with its indirect fire.

I have had AI helicopters seemingly stay just out of anti air range, but I've also had AI helicopters fly into AA or AAA -- before and after the unit has been exposed. I can't tell if the AI is scripted to fly to certain waypoints and those are designed to be just out of range (based on the map's geography, i.e. likely spots for AA) or what. Bunny hopping MANPAADS seems to be the best way to get squirelly AI helos (if you don't have fighters).

If you've got units you don't want the AI focusing on and they get exposed, hide 'em and move 'em.

I think your assestment, Radioactive, that the AI just reacts very quickly to all the units on the map that it sees is correct. It's one of the reasons I really love the addition of the variable speed in AI skirmishes.

If you've got the time and the extra cash, I'd say try out Red Dragon. The campaigns are very fun and you can see for yourself how the AI comports itself.

[troublmaker]

The AI won't fire on unts it can't see. But it will do weird things like fire smoke in random areas or send out fighters out and then just not fire with them.

The AI is programmed to work in a very set way to work at grabbing objectives rather than play the player.

[Radioactive]

Thanks everybody. That cleared things up for me & I got the game.

[Red]

I've said it before and i'll say it here. All AI's cheat, across every game and every genre. There is a limit to how "smart" we can make an AI. To compensate, AI's are given bonuses and advantages to scale difficulty. AI never gets smarter by difficulty scale.
Take COD for example. Veteran mode can be a pain in the back-side. The change though is a better aim bot and greatly increased bullet damage. The guys actually holding the guns though are still as derpy as ever.

Out of curiosity, why aren’t you interested in the multiplayer? The game might as well have been made for multiplayer.

[CMDR Sweeper]

Yes the Ai is a massive cheater.
For an example, you may only get 500 points to deploy units, but the Ai will deploy units worth 1500-2000 points at the start, and keep getting command points a lot faster than you.
And that is with the Ai set to the lowest difficulty level "Easy"

Man I wish we had a punkbuster or VAC for Ai cheating at times :P

[Jinroh]

What grind my gears when an AI unit is stand still, doing nothing from his life and right after I send my aircraft or fire position with arty, the unit move just a few inches but suficient to miss the target. How?! Tell me how?!

[Silence Suzuka]

I don't feel the AI has full vision, i managed to send a group of elite INF to strike AI and it does worked, AI is obviously unprepared, the LZ is almost empty and my infantry easily found and destroyed AI's command car. Their intercepter tryed to intercept my heli, but killed an empty one. Besides the AI doesn't try to find and kill you arty when they are firing.

[Solon]

AI has to use recon of optics to see you...it no longer wallhacks like in the previous games, despite what many claim...sometimes the AI uses its recon to good effect. Sometimes not at all...

Originally posted by CMDR Sweeper:

Yes the Ai is a massive cheater.
For an example, you may only get 500 points to deploy units, but the Ai will deploy units worth 1500-2000 points at the start, and keep getting command points a lot faster than you.
And that is with the Ai set to the lowest difficulty level "Easy"

Man I wish we had a punkbuster or VAC for Ai cheating at times :P

This is only if you play the AI on higher difficulties over EASY. On Easy...the AI get 1.2x points and has to use the given deck and very little more. Also if you team up against 1 AI...say 3v1, it will receive 3x compensation. So really you only fool yourself by saying the AI cheats. Eugen is about balance. Best not to forget that.

What I dislike is that the AI get more stuff the higher it goes in difficulty. I think - Very Hard - should have the deck as is and no extra points ... but ... with an eye-blistering algorithm that just rips face.

On Easy, the AI should get all the bonuses to compensate for the lazy impetus presented by the AI.

[Kamikaze Velociraptor]

In EE, the AI literally was spotting you from across the map. The famous example is the 1914 again mission, where the enemy rockets your unit from across the map with no recon. This was the problem was the engine. Its flawed by design. This is why they don't release mod tools. The modders will patch it. Total war or Civ fixes this by adding handicaps to the AI, but it also improves the behavior of the AI. Xcom is guily of the same AI issues, like in this game. Its a machine learning issue, that no one in the world can fix. But in this game the fix some of the AI cheaty behavior. It no longer attacks without recon. This allows the AI to not spam units as in EE or ALB.

[Solon]

^ Yes. If the AI cannot see your units, it cannot attempt to destroy those units. However, if the AI uses reconnaissance units, its ability to fight increases, massively. The only problem here is getting the AI to use recon units in modes like Conquest, effectively.

[Kamikaze Velociraptor]

WG:RD is just the dev finally learning the AI cheaty behavior, but it still plague by its engine issues. They need a new engine to fix the problems. There are some games where the AI actually learn your behavior, and improves upon it. FEAR was famous for this. The AI, actually flanked you and used team tactics. If you were behind cover, it doesn''t rush, but throws grenades. The higher the difficulty in FEAR, the more ruthless they became. It was probably the best AI i've heard seen. This game can used the same behavior, but its difficult because it requires software engineers who are trained in machine learning.