I was thinking about a potential Wargame-4 Scenario for the Crimean War (like that failed mod) and I'd like some opinions on ukranian and russian equipment...

[Azrael20]

This is just about what Ukraine and Russia currently have in their inventories, and, of those, what should be included in game in a potential Wargame 4 located in the war in Ukraine/Donbass.



Russia:
AK-103: Used by Spetsnaz
AK-74M: Standard AR
PKP Pecheneg: Standard LMG
RPK-74M: SAW
GM-94: Spetsnaz could have this instead of a Shmel (it's a CQC pump-action GL)
AGS-17/30: AGL team?
RPO-A Shmel: Engineers?
RPG-7XX: I put XX because there are so many different warhead variants.
RPG-32?
RPG-30?
RPG-29?
9M113M Konkurs-M: Medium-high end ATGM team
9M133 Kornet: High-end ATGM team
9K34 Strela-3: Low-end MANPADS team
9K38 Igla: Medium-end MANPADS team
9K333 Verba: High-end MANPADS team

Ukraine:
MZ-15: Future standard AR, ukraine special forces?
AK-74: Standard AR
PKM: Standard LMG
RPK-74: SAW
UAG-40/AGS-17: High-end and medium-end AGL teams
RPO-A Shmel: Engineers? Specops?
RPG-29: FSV team
RPG-26?
RPG-22?
RPG-18?
RPG-7XX: Again, so many variants
Corsar ATGM: High-end light ATGM team, replacing ♥♥♥♥♥, I think
Skif ATGM: High-end heavy ATGM team, replacing Konkurs, I think
9K115-2 Metis-M: Airborne?
9M113 Konkurs: Moderate-end ATGM team
9K111 ♥♥♥♥♥: Low-end ATGM team
9K38 Igla-1: Medium-end MANPADS team
Strela-3: Low-end MANPADS team
Strela-2: Really low-end MANPADS team



Russia:
T-14 Armata: The highest-end tank of both countries. T-72BU/T-80UM equivalent
T-90AM: High-end tank equivalent to the T-72 Obr 1989 or T-80U
T-90A: High-end workhorse like the T-72B, T-80A, or T-64BV1
T-90: Worst T-90 variant. T-80BV equivalent?
T-80U?
T-80BV?
T-72B3M: High-end T-72
T-72B3: High-end T-72
T-72BM: Best (I think) T-72 variant.
T-72BA?
T-72B Obr. 1990?
T-72B: Lower-end tank
T-72B1: Lower-end tank
T-55M6/AM6: T-55 upgraded with K-5, 125MM gun, and others. T-72A or T-55AM, people
T-55M5/AM5?
T-55MV/AMV: lowest-end Russian tank

Ukraine:
T-84 BM Oplot: Best Ukrainian tank. Equivalent of T-90AM
T-84-120 Yatagan?
T-84 Oplot: T-90A equivalent
T-84U?
T-84: T-90 equivalent.
T-80UD: Heavy damage-dealer, but not as heavily armored.
T-80BV?
T-80B: Lower-end T-80
T-64BM Bulat: High-end T-64 workhorse.
T-64U?
T-64BM2?
T-64BV: Low-end Ukrainian tank
T-64B: Low-end Ukrainian tank
T-55AGM: Ukrainian version of T-55M6 built for export, but used due to lack of armor.
T-55MV/AMV?



Russia:
T-15 Armata: High-end IFV
Kurganets-25: Same as T-15, basically. Perhaps not needed
Bumerang: Think old BTR-90 with Kornets.
ATOM: A wheeled 57MM autocannon. What's not to like?
BTR-T: T-55 chassis with 30MM cannon and AGS-17, please. Alternatively, mix in Konkurs or 2A38s
BMP-3M: Upgraded BMP-3 with K-5
BMP-3: Multipurpose IFV
BMP-2M "Berezhok": Upgraded BMP-2
BMP-2M : Upgraded BMP-2
BMP-2 Obr 1986: Medium-end IFV
BMP-1M: Upgraded BMP-1
BMP-1P?
BTR-90?
BTR-82A: Basically BTR-80A modernized
BTR-82: BTR-80 modernized
BTR-80A?
BTR-80: workhorse wheeled APC

Ukraine:
BTMP-84: Literally a T-84 with a troop compartment in back. Incredibly amazing, but likely extremely expensive.
BMPV-64: T-64 chassis with troops and 30MM autocannon as heavy tracked transport
BTRV-64: Wheeled, less armored variant of BMPV-64
BMP-2: First non-tank IFV
BMP-1U: Upgraded BMP-1.
BMP-1?
BTR-4 “Shkval”: wheeled IFV with 30MM cannon and AGS-17
BTR-4 BAU 23x2: wheeled IFV with 2 23MM autocannons
BTR-3E: wheeled IFV with 30MM cannon and Skif missiles
BTR-94?
BTR-80: Lower-end workhorse APC
BTR-70: Low-end APC
KrAZ Spartan: Wheeled APC, likely 7.62MM MG. Think humvee



Russia:
BMPT (the real one): Yeah, that's right. T-72 chassis, 2 2A42 30mm cannons, 4 Atakas, AGS-30
Sprut-SD: BMD chassis with 2A45 125MM gun firing APFSDS rounds or Svir missiles
Kurganets-25 SPG: Kurganets-25 with 125MM gun
Kornet-D: 8 Kornets on a wheeled chassis. Can take down helicopters
BMP-3 AT-15: Self-explanetory
BMP-3 Kornet-T?

Ukraine:
MOP-4K FSV: BTR-4 with 125MM gun
BTR-3E 90 FSV: BTR-3 with 90MM gun
BRDM-2 Konkurs: self-explanetory
???
What other vehicles does Ukraine have? I must be missing something.



Russia:
2S35 Koalitsiya-SV: Highest-end howitzer on T-14 chassis
2S34 Chosta/Hosta: Upgraded 120MM Gvozdika
2S23 Nona-SVK: 120MM mortar on BTR-80 chassis
2S19 Msta-S: T-80 Chassis, 152MM howitzer
2S3M1 Akatsiya?
2S31 Vena: BMP-3 120MM gun/mortar
2S23 Nona?
TOS-1/1A: The burrito!
9A52-4 Tornado: multi-purpose rocket arty
BM-30 Smerch: Heavy MLRS
BM-27 Uragan / Uragan-M: Medium MLRS
BM-21-1: Upgraded BM-21
BM-21: Light MLRS
Pantsir-S1: High-end Tunguska, basically. Can be on truck or tracked chassis
2K22M1 Tunguska: upgraded tunguksa
2K22M Tunguska: 2 30MM guns, 8 missiles. We all know it.
ZSU-23-4M4/M5: Upgraded ZSU-23-4 with Iglas and better FCS
ZSU-23-4MZ Biryusa/Beryoza: Workhorse SPAAG, most likely
Strela-10: Infrared SRSAM
9K33M3 Osa-AKM?
9K33M2 Osa-AK?
Tor-M1-2U: High-end Tor that can fire on the move
9K332 Tor-ME?
9K317 Buk-M2: Russia's LRSAM
9K37M1-2 Buk-M1-2: Russia's other LRSAM
9K37M1 Buk-M1?
Kurganets-25 SPAAG: Kurganets-25 with 57MM SPAAG gun on it. Fun!

Ukraine:
9A52-2 Smerch: BM-30
9P140 Uragan: BM-27
BM-21U Grad: upgraded BM-21
BM-21 Grad?
2S19 Msta-S: High-end howitzer for ukraine
2S3 Akatsiya?
2S1 Gvozdika: Workhorse 122MM howitzer
2S5 Giatsint-S: Better version of Akatsiya, to my understanding. Russia has it too, but already has several howitzer variants.
2S9 Nona: 120MM mortar on tracked chassis
Any self-propelled version of B-4 203MM? That'd add flavor lol

Tor?
9K33M2/M3 Osa-AK(M): Wheeled radar SAM
9K35 Strela-10: Infrared SRSAM
Tunguska-M1: Ukraine's best SPAAG, unfortunately
ZSU-23-4 Shilka: I don't know if it's the basic variant, an upgrade, or the Biryusa
9K37 Buk: Ukraine's LRSAM
S-125 Neva/Pechora: Ukraine's ultra-long range LRSAM



Russia:
Mi-28N: High-end night attack helicopter
Mi-28NM: Highest-end gunship.
Ka-52: No SEAD missiles, unfortunately.
Mi-24PN: upgraded Mi-24.
Mi-24VM: Upgraded Mi-24
Mi-24VP: Moderate-end gunship
Mi-24P: low-end gunship
Mi-8AMTSh: Mi-8 gunship variant carrying weapons of Mi-24VP
Mi-8MTV: Transport
Mi-8AMT: Transport

Ukraine:
Mi-24PM: Upgraded Mi-24
Mi-24VP: Ukraine's second-best attack chopper
Mi-24P: Moderate-end attack chopper.
Mi-24V: Low-end gunship. No iglas, I don't think.
Mi-8MT: Transport
Mi-17: Transport
Mi-2MSB2: Transport


I really don't know that much about any of these. Sorry!
Russia:
PAK FA?
SU-35
SU-34
SU-30M2/SM
SU-27SM/SM3
SU-27SM2
MiG-35
MiG-29SMT
MiG-29SM
SU-25SM
SU-25TM/SU-39
SU-24M2
SU-24
MiG-31BM
MiG-31B

Ukraine:
SU-27UB/US/UP1M
SU-27S
MiG-29MU1/UB
MiG-29S/A
SU-25UBM1
SU-25M1
SU-24M

In conclusion:

Russia and Ukraine have basically equal armored forces and infantry. Ukraine has better IFVs, IMO, due to the BTR-4, BTR-3, BMTP-84, and BMPV/BTRV-64, but loses pretty badly in air defence and helicopters. I don't really know for aircraft, but it seems that they are only lacking a stealth fighter and an interceptor. Artillery looks about the same - Russia's got better stuff, but only a little. Both are very armor/mechanized-based, it seems, due to their strong tube artillery, tank, and tracked IFV sections (unfortunately, unless something changes, none of those lovely wheeled IFVs like the Bumerang, ATOM, BTR-4 or BTR-3 will be used with either of those deck types...).

Feel free to suggest stuff. I think I have too many tanks for both, so tell me what to take out.

[BanDHMO]

You seem to be completely missing the BMD series of IFVs, which both sides' airmobile forces are equipped with.

Also, what is the exact scenario? If you are trying to recreate what happened so far, I'd say add lightly equipped militia, volunteer, and police forces with light technicals, or even crappy civilian buses/trucks. Early in the conflict those played a huge role. I recall reading some participant's reports where their battalion was issed 2 ancient BRDMs restored from long-term storage, and they made all the difference because the opposition didn't have any AT beyond RPGs, which the BRDM's HMG outranged.

Generally, add a lot more older, crappy hardware for both sides to use early on in the conflict. The beginning of the conflict was very strange, as Ukraine's army basically didn't exist as a fighting force, following decades of corruption and dismantling, causing them to rely surprisingly much on citizen-organized 'volunteer battalions' with light arms, while Russia tried to pretend not to be involved as much as possible, and so relied on supplying the rebels with older hardware and sending volunteers rather than regular units.

[Azrael20]

1. Ah, sheiz. TY

2. Basically, a NATO response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, along with the Ukrainian response as well.

3. True enough, but infantry combat is one of Wargame's worst features XD

[orcbuster]

Ukraine conflict is a banned topic on the Eugen forums due to controversy and hostile discussions.

Chances for a Ukraine wargame=zero chance

[Azrael20]

so we're stuck in the 90s, basically?


I mean, every war since 2001 is contreversal. Afghanistan = contreversial, Iraq 2003 = contreversal, drone strikes all over the world = contreversal, ISIS terror attacks = contreversal, Russian invasion of Ukraine = contreversal...




it doesn't leave us with a lot of options except to remain in the same time period as we've been in for all three games, or go back to WW2

[GrandHardy]

Originally posted by Xenospartan653:

so we're stuck in the 90s, basically?


I mean, every war since 2001 is contreversal. Afghanistan = contreversial, Iraq 2003 = contreversal, drone strikes all over the world = contreversal, ISIS terror attacks = contreversal, Russian invasion of Ukraine = contreversal...




it doesn't leave us with a lot of options except to remain in the same time period as we've been in for all three games, or go back to WW2

It doesn't stop them making a conflict up. But lets be honest, who really wants to play a wargame based on Afghanistan or ISIS?

[Azrael20]

Originally posted by GrandHardy:

Originally posted by Xenospartan653:

so we're stuck in the 90s, basically?


I mean, every war since 2001 is contreversal. Afghanistan = contreversial, Iraq 2003 = contreversal, drone strikes all over the world = contreversal, ISIS terror attacks = contreversal, Russian invasion of Ukraine = contreversal...




it doesn't leave us with a lot of options except to remain in the same time period as we've been in for all three games, or go back to WW2

It doesn't stop them making a conflict up. But lets be honest, who really wants to play a wargame based on Afghanistan or ISIS?

true enough

[Bass Cannon]

And what about Russian high end SAMs like S 400?

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by cofi.novisad95:

And what about Russian high end SAMs like S 400?

What do you want to know about them?

[Azrael20]

Originally posted by cofi.novisad95:

And what about Russian high end SAMs like S 400?

long-range SAMs are pretty OOC in wargame. The Patriot has proven that well enough...

[[HAN]falcofyc]

the type of war became more elctronical after 2003, its became really hard to simulate, WG is still a cold war type game,they need to change a lot for a very modern one

[Azrael20]

the problem with Cold War stuff is that they've pretty much run out of units to put in.