Wargame: Red Dragon

Wargame: Red Dragon

Pure Proof that Germany (Blufor) is Overpowered
My friends and I did a 2 V 1, as two of us are relatively inexperienced when compared to the other player. We traded almost exactly evenly point wise the entire match, until the lone player was about to lose. Both my partner and I pretty much depleted our entire decks over the course of the game, so we suspected that he had depleted his as well. How wrong we were. It was like a Chaos Warp Gate opened up, and thousands of troops started pouring out. Once I was completely out of deck, I surrendered and my partner got his entire deck back. Too bad it didn't even mean anything, as he quickly got overwhelmed even though he basically had 2 decks.

Basically, in Conquest, Germany can just stack and stack Marders and Panzergrenadiers, which are both very good units in their own rights. He literally had 100s. Yes, his deck was doubled, but still. The same thing would have happened in a 1 v 1. My partner and I were in awe. We can't see any for seeable way to beat this deck. My nighthawk was taking out companies of infantry, but it didnt even make a dent in his deck.

Here is the replay in case any one wants to watch it:
https://filebin.net/kt86r35qpcf31dvr
Last edited by Insane Ruffles; Feb 10, 2020 @ 6:22pm
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Showing 1-15 of 16 comments
krasnyii Feb 10, 2020 @ 10:23pm 
In conquest, a lot of country can just stack, not only germany.
That's why there is something called : Arty. It have been made and balanced to force armies to move.
And if your opponents doesn't have any in his deck... It's a mistake, and he gonna loose.
Wilson Feb 11, 2020 @ 12:02am 
Haven't played in so long that i forget if at the start of a 2v1 the player playing alone gets double the income, and deck right off the bat.

In any case one good player playing against two new players is never going to end well, especially on a city map. There's numerous factors that you don't understand yet, and that he can exploit to get away with a lot.

Like you or your friend using regular infantry whereas he's soley using shock like the panzers, and elites/special forces. How he uses stacks of four fireteams vs your one or two stacks. How he can micro his marders to push your ♥♥♥♥ in while you don't know how to deal with them. Or he simply blows whatever idea you had up in your face.

If you want to see a truly overpowered nation lemme go get a motorized or regular eastern block deck and show you the ways of komis, formaza, lstr's along whatever their shock infantry is. The deck you want go with if anyone pulls out a motorized eurocorps. Or you simply want to cheese a city map.

I can't tell you how many times someone tried pulling a moto eurocorps deck on me and i changed mine to that just to see the poor man change to something else. :steamhappy:

Seriously though, what you're complaining about is fine in every way. The only problem is how you tried 2v1'ing a better player. Which is fine if you want to learn, but is going to be annoying until you do so.

Keep an open mind and adopt strategy's from other players. Watch every replay where you get your ass handed to you and burn the strategy's used against you into your mind. Then use those to fight or simply form new ones to suit your needs. It's what i did to get a lot better.

As a bonus, on maps like wosan harbor it can be tricky to win. The fact is if one side doesn't beat the other right out it's going to be a long drawn out fight. So when hordes of infantry are in any city/town fire artillery in and near the back. Keep damaged units demoralized so they can't replace their losses, plus you'll eventually get all the supply trucks doing it anyway. It's the best way to make sure you're not the one who's gonna be on the losing side.
Euro_General Feb 11, 2020 @ 1:30am 
Just like the previous guy said, when you are playing 1vs2 the player alone will get X2 units

some thing i noticed
The West german player probably played a mechanized specialization hence he had even MORE mechanized unit (and why he was this good in the long run!)

you were playing NORAD and Israel, Arguably two very good choice, and combined against West germany you started with a nice advantage (somehow balanced, by the sheer manpower of the west german mechanized player.)

You choosed a 1V1 map, death row, which was an advantage for the mechanized player when you consider the amount of forest and the nice city in the center of the map.

you all seemed to be quite new in the game, so all the advantage of Israel/norad, didn't really play in your favor and all the little thing i said played into the german player advantage.

the disadvantage of a mechanized west german deck is that he don't have access to very fast unit (expected fallshirmjäger in helicopter) which mean you can take him by surprize at the start of the game, but in the long run, he might be able to pump out more units.

oh, and a little advice, don't stack unit with 4 units when they are in the field, only do that when you place lots of infantry in cities. But generally you gain more flexibility to use them by pair.
Dakota Feb 11, 2020 @ 11:05am 
Have you heard of our lord and savior: cluster munitions.

That and it's just some infantry and APCs, toss some mid tier tanks at them, you outrange them, reverse if they try to get into range where their ACs do anything, shoot hordes of them as they desparately try to do damage.

Nighthawk isn't really the best option for this, it's a big high value bomber that hits one thing in particular with guided bombs, toss out some cheap intruders or whatever for 75 points and bomb lines in their force. The Aardvarks are also pretty nice too with a cluster variant or HE variant and big spread.

Haven't watched the vid yet tho, just giving general tips.
Dakota Feb 11, 2020 @ 11:55am 
Oh man, I'm watching this replay now and geeze it is painful.

What was that start even supposed to be on either side? Where was blue's recon? Why was nobody using their artillery that they have multiple quad stacks of everywhere while there's a big city fight going on? That city should have been lower than the dirt. Also what was going on with the stack of leos just sitting in a forest doing nothing? Also what even were blue's "pushes", also what was the purpose of the shermans sent up? Also why are the IFVs being unloaded so far from buildings and having the infantry walk through a hail of grenades while the IFV runs away instead of provides fire support? Also what were those alpha jets even supposed to be doing before they dropped napalm on empty buildings and died to pivads?

There's many more problems in play here than some dude having some marders. I'm not even 30 minutes into this yet. Got myself and 2 other friends who're pros at the game watching this and just kinda wondering what's going on.
Insane Ruffles Feb 11, 2020 @ 12:10pm 
Originally posted by Dakota:
Oh man, I'm watching this replay now and geeze it is painful.

What was that start even supposed to be on either side? Where was blue's recon? Why was nobody using their artillery that they have multiple quad stacks of everywhere while there's a big city fight going on? That city should have been lower than the dirt. Also what was going on with the stack of leos just sitting in a forest doing nothing? Also what even were blue's "pushes", also what was the purpose of the shermans sent up? Also why are the IFVs being unloaded so far from buildings and having the infantry walk through a hail of grenades while the IFV runs away instead of provides fire support? Also what were those alpha jets even supposed to be doing before they dropped napalm on empty buildings and died to pivads?

There's many more problems in play here than some dude having some marders. I'm not even 30 minutes into this yet. Got myself and 2 other friends who're pros at the game watching this and just kinda wondering what's going on.

RIP. We dont play competitively, just against each other. This may have lead us to form some bad habits...
REDACTED Feb 11, 2020 @ 12:27pm 
Hey, I was Germany in this one. I would live some pointers because I get beat like a drum when I play in random lobbies online. If you are watching the replay, the deck I ran was a German mechanized with a bunch of panzer grenadiers in marders and ATGM vehicles. Limited air and helos were the two big drawbacks that I see in it.
As to gameplay, I need to scout better and be more decisive with my attacks. Any other pointers would be welcome.
Dakota Feb 11, 2020 @ 12:56pm 
Ye, me and the guys are taking a look at the decks now. They're kinda terrible to say it lightly. Being someone who plays US alot myself, that NORAD deck looked painful, it is just like you decided to make sure to exclude any of the best vehicles.

Would recommend you bring some MBT70s, best tank you can get for general purpose. The HE is great from that gun, it comes with a 20mm too so it demolishes IFV and light armor stuff along with infantry too, ATGM isn't that great and some recommend to just turn it off or only use it if you know what you're doing with some range bands. Also get a HEMTT, no reason to bring some truck over one of the best ground supply vehicles in the game. You also have 0 firesupport in the deck so dealing with infantry is going to be difficult. NORAD has a lot of options with Ontos, M163s, CEVs, Flamethrower vehicles, and even the MBT70 works in this role if you really don't have a dedicated vehicle for it. Also could use some SMAW teams, they do great against infantry and tanks, could go with assault engineers armed with the flash if you want pure anti infantry though, a stack of those does some damage.

Also 80mm mortars are useless outside of the smoke role. You can see in the replay you fire a full volley from a quad stack at a building that has a 2 man squad in it and only one member of the squad dies. The 80mm mortar blast radius is terrible so you practically never get damage out of it, NORAD has no 120mm (107 is still weaker than 120) so you should use 155 howitzers as attrition against infantry in towns, mortars can be used for smoke though at least. You could probably benefit from an ADATS since it is pretty great and lacks radar so it is harder to spot. ATACMS is also very useful vehicle for sniping high value targets, but no one in this match uses any high value tanks or arty pieces much it seems to make it worth your time here.

Should also point out that M1A2 is a pretty good option as a tank for the super high damage it puts out, beats other high value tanks in 1v1s given luck doesn't favor one or the other too much, just be careful with it because it is valuable.

In the air tab you seem to be missing a lot of useful stuff. You should have a fighter, anti tank jet, bomber, SEAD, and cluster bomber for well rounded air ability. However you have 2 fighters and 2 bombers so you lack the ability to force enemies to turn their radar off or lose AA and lack any sort of fast response anti tank push jet or anti massed vehicles unit.
Dakota Feb 11, 2020 @ 1:17pm 
As for the German deck, it's considerably more workable, a few recommendations like KPZ-70, has worse HE but better AP compared to the MBT70 and loses the ATGM and is a little more expensive, but the 20mm added on is rather nice and could maybe replace your 80 point leos if you are looking for better ability to counter IFVs and inf with your tank. Would also recommend you round out your infantry options a little more. You have a whole lot of infantry available but don't have any ATGM teams or fire support infantry, obviously you can see they could be pretty useful, but to spell it out, the ATGMs help a lot with keeping enemy vehicles away from a town you are defending and fire support helps defeat infantry much faster than infantry does on its own, these pair up well on the outskirts of a town by destroying a transport and then the fire support can blast the infantry if they press on and try to get in.

Most of the issue in your case was just how you used the things you have though rather than not having things available to use. I mentioned already you had a whole lot of artillery but used it very little. If you got double quad stacks of 203s you better be emptying those fobs and then after that spawning logistics vehicles to fill them up again. Just dump all over every bit of city, forest, etc where you know or even have good suspicion that the enemy has infantry or lightly armored vehicles at. You can also time your attacks with your pushes a bit better, for example spraying the enemy city down with a volley of howitzers and mortars to panic them so that your infantry has an easy time dealing with them. Also I noticed you had a whole lot of M42s at the end there but never really used them that much mid and early game in the fire support role to help with that town either. Even the IFVs would just leave the infantry to die half the time rather than really helping too much. Also since you're using wiesels a lot just wanna remind you to have a supply truck around somewhere for them since their fuel capacity is very low.

Also noticed a lot of pushes and just sitting around defending with no recon, but you already mentioned you know you need to use the recon more. Recon's definitely the most important tab, without it all the others are blind and worth far less. The air for the deck isn't that great, but you do have enough options available with west Germany moto to not really suffer, they have a weak but usable ATGM jet, some bombers, fighters, and even SEAD, just lacks cluster bombers and the ATGM jet is low ammo count but multirole.

Helis honestly aren't really that important tbh, they're very easy to counter with proper AA usage. Speaking of which, bring the A2 gepards instead of the A1s. Their stabilizer is way better and accuracy is a bit better too so they'll do way more damage, that and they have a stinger missile built in so even if you have to turn the guns off against SEAD it still has some air defense. Main issue is you don't have any option available with over 2800m range (and considering you were fighting israel, which is pay to win, you'd need about 3km range to outrange the nimrods) you're gonna be in danger of their best anti tank helis. Longbow would at least have to get in range of gepard guns or roland missiles to fire, but the nimrod doesn't. I'd consider that the biggest weakness of this deck.

Also just personal preference, but have you tried out the 155 howitzers? They're very nice compared to the 203s in terms of how much HE they put out in a volley. The 203 is limited to 2 shots before a reload while the 155s fire like 6 or 7 shots before a reload, they also carry enough ammo onboard to fire a few volleys before needing a resupply. They also have faster aim times generally. The 50 point one I like for massing and firing it at a city, it is somewhat inaccurate compared to the 203 but since you have more of them and they fire much faster you just saturate a whole city in HE perfectly. The more expensive one is decent at firing at more specific targets, but you really lack a top end howitzer in this deck to truly snipe.
Rodi Feb 12, 2020 @ 4:32am 
anyone telling you to grab kpz70s is wrong. It pains me that someone would recommend mbt70s to a US player...
Dakota Feb 12, 2020 @ 10:12am 
Originally posted by 187:
anyone telling you to grab kpz70s is wrong. It pains me that someone would recommend mbt70s to a US player...

Honestly can't believe anyone would have something against either of those tanks. MBT70 is by far one of the best things you can bring along for a huge amount of tactics. It absolutely demolishes IFVs, beats other low quality HEAT armed tanks in point blank fights because of that AC's pen going way up due to close range, demolishes infantry, and it pairs perfectly with a screening of SMAW if you're looking to clear out an enemy forest.

What could you possibly dislike about it?
Last edited by Dakota; Feb 12, 2020 @ 10:47am
Marneus_FR Feb 13, 2020 @ 1:49am 
Originally posted by Insane Ruffles:
RIP. We dont play competitively, just against each other. This may have lead us to form some bad habits...

Then how do you consider this replay a "proof" of anything. A nation is not OP because you lost against a guy who was using it...
Insane Ruffles Feb 13, 2020 @ 9:39am 
Originally posted by Marneus FR:
Originally posted by Insane Ruffles:
RIP. We dont play competitively, just against each other. This may have lead us to form some bad habits...

Then how do you consider this replay a "proof" of anything. A nation is not OP because you lost against a guy who was using it...

That has nothing to do with it though. We still traded evenly point wise, yet he had enough deck left over to fight a whole other battle. Again, this has mainly to do with the Panzergrenadier Marder combo. The Panzergrenadiers are arguably one of the best shock infantry decks in the game, while the Marders are very efficient for their price point. His deck has 56 of them, and he still has plenty of space left over for other infantry units. Unless you build a specific counter deck, there really isnt any good way to counter it. Yeah, you could blow the ♥♥♥♥ out of the city, but there's still plenty of places to hide. Even annihilating an entire of company of Marders and Panzergrenadiers barely puts a dent in his infantry deck.

Basically, in conquest, the Germany player would have to run a huge point deficit to lose. As an opposing player, I'm just not sure how to force that when the other player is evenly or a little bit more skilled than me. He basically has a chaff opfor deck, but instead of chaff units he has some of the best infantry in the game, along with Marders, as stated above.
Marneus_FR Feb 13, 2020 @ 10:49am 
What decks were you using ? Because if he was playing a full german deck, he had a very nice availability bonus. Which can explain the fact that you runned out of steam and he didn't. Also try to stick with standard game setup if you want to avoid losing to this kind of meatgrinder deck.
Insane Ruffles Feb 18, 2020 @ 12:58pm 
Originally posted by Dakota:
Ye, me and the guys are taking a look at the decks now. They're kinda terrible to say it lightly. Being someone who plays US alot myself, that NORAD deck looked painful, it is just like you decided to make sure to exclude any of the best vehicles.

Would recommend you bring some MBT70s, best tank you can get for general purpose. The HE is great from that gun, it comes with a 20mm too so it demolishes IFV and light armor stuff along with infantry too, ATGM isn't that great and some recommend to just turn it off or only use it if you know what you're doing with some range bands. Also get a HEMTT, no reason to bring some truck over one of the best ground supply vehicles in the game. You also have 0 firesupport in the deck so dealing with infantry is going to be difficult. NORAD has a lot of options with Ontos, M163s, CEVs, Flamethrower vehicles, and even the MBT70 works in this role if you really don't have a dedicated vehicle for it. Also could use some SMAW teams, they do great against infantry and tanks, could go with assault engineers armed with the flash if you want pure anti infantry though, a stack of those does some damage.

Also 80mm mortars are useless outside of the smoke role. You can see in the replay you fire a full volley from a quad stack at a building that has a 2 man squad in it and only one member of the squad dies. The 80mm mortar blast radius is terrible so you practically never get damage out of it, NORAD has no 120mm (107 is still weaker than 120) so you should use 155 howitzers as attrition against infantry in towns, mortars can be used for smoke though at least. You could probably benefit from an ADATS since it is pretty great and lacks radar so it is harder to spot. ATACMS is also very useful vehicle for sniping high value targets, but no one in this match uses any high value tanks or arty pieces much it seems to make it worth your time here.

Should also point out that M1A2 is a pretty good option as a tank for the super high damage it puts out, beats other high value tanks in 1v1s given luck doesn't favor one or the other too much, just be careful with it because it is valuable.

In the air tab you seem to be missing a lot of useful stuff. You should have a fighter, anti tank jet, bomber, SEAD, and cluster bomber for well rounded air ability. However you have 2 fighters and 2 bombers so you lack the ability to force enemies to turn their radar off or lose AA and lack any sort of fast response anti tank push jet or anti massed vehicles unit.

May I ask why I would bring the MBT 70 when I can get the M1 Abrams for only 5 points more? Sure, it doesnt have the ATGM, but its stats are pretty much all around better otherwise.
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Date Posted: Feb 10, 2020 @ 6:22pm
Posts: 16