The Lost Design Discussion

[Void]

So I've been playing as the Lost recently, as its unlocks are the last of what I need to complete the game, and I've been having an absolutely horrible time of it. At first I was alright with it, recognizing it as the challenge it is, but the more I play, the more I realize that The Lost just doesn't feel well designed as a character for this game.

Most of the possibility for ever beating the game with this character seems to come from massive amounts of luck in addition to the large amount of skill. Whether this means getting something to prolong your already tenuous connection to life (9 Lives, Holy Mantle, Guppy's Collar, etc.) or not being killed by something completely random and un-avoidable (Holy Sky Beams, burrowing enemies coming up under you, Mega Fatties dropping faster than is avoidable, etc.). All combined with the continuous risk of taking damage from enemies or environmental hazards in a game just feels like a cheap and lazy addition.

Add onto this the fact that over 15% of the item pool is rendered completely useless, not adding the items that lose some or most of their utility, all added into the already large amount of items that are semi-useless already in an effort to pad out the strong items.

This makes for an urewarding experience where those who can't get through on luck or by using exploits are left to butt their heads against a frustrating and tedious challenge until their patience runs out and they're left never wanting to play what was otherwise a very good game.

The Lost should have been difficult, a great deal more than playing with any other character, but not in a way that goes against the grain in respect to a massive portion of the game's design. The worst part about it is whether you've beaten it or not, this part of the game is almost unanimously thought of as nothing but a chore. Something to finish and be done with forever, and looked back on with spite and relief, instead of a challenging final test that would bring you back to play through again.

So yeah, that's all, I'd like to hear about what you thought about the lost and whether you agree with me or think I'm full of crap, as well as why.

[Bansheebutt]

Yeah, the Lost is pretty stupid. Anyone who supports him probably also think Kaizo Mario is a well-designed game.

Somedays I wish The Lost could just get 3 or 4 Spirit hearts that can never be replenished. You could still take all DwtDs but only if you were at/above 3 Hearts. That way, You keep the spirit of The Lost, but not the instant game over nonesense for the slightest, most singular mistake.

I would actually *want* to play as The Lost if that were the case.

[Void]

Jesus, anything to make him a fair and interesting character at all. It's like they thought, "Eh, whatever, just give him flight and make him die in one hit.". Makes it hard to empathize with how it was leaked when it seems like so little effort was put into the creation of the character.

[Soulless]

To me is just a joke for hardcore gamers, I completed all main bosses in hard mode and it feels rewarding as hell, but ye, I will need a big reason to come back to the game, even if I love it.

It need new items or exclusive trinkets for the character, an example could be like the Heart jar that sometimes spawn at shop, but for the Lost and working only with soul hearts,, Anything that allows you to risk and play longer, because rely exclusively on Dead Cat, Holy Mantle, and Stop Watch isnt fair at all, even with them, some rooms/bosses can ruin a whole run

[Soulless]

Eraserhead just nailed it.

[Bansheebutt]

Yeah, a "Legendary Challenge" where you have to hope RNGesus let's you get a halfway decent run going. Instead of four floors of HP and other non-offensive upgrades.

Beating the Xbox Ninja Gaiden on *Normal* felt far more of a satisfying accomplishment than the ridiculous crap you go through with the Lost.

[Soulless]

If this game had been made and published in the 90s, only a few players would have know about its existence. Its like those secrets from the old school nintendo games that were mere urban legends until the arrival of internet, where all is leaked and uploaded. Just try to unlock The Lost without internet, how do you figure out the steps? The Lost was meant to be a legend.

[Momoplsnono]

I understand that the Lost is designed to be a difficult character that unlocks interesting items but at the same time I wish it had more replayability.
I would've liked if the Lost started with some form of revival item like Nine Lives then that would make it more enjoyable and will give me a reason to play the character other than for the unlocks.

[Bansheebutt]

Originally posted by Soulless:

If this game had been made and published in the 90s, only a few players would have know about its existence. Its like those secrets from the old school nintendo games that were mere urban legends until the arrival of internet, where all is leaked and uploaded. Just try to unlock The Lost without internet, how do you figure out the steps? The Lost was meant to be a legend.

What does any of this pig-dressing have to do with people's actual problem with The Lost?

Ok, wow is like Olden times, much nostalgia. That doesn't have anything to do with this "amazing secret" being somethiing you end up wishing never existed in the first place.

It's about as bad as 100% a massive game and unlocking Concept Art. Concept art in the form of a 5 hour video with no commentary or scene selection.

You go through this elaborate process of unlocking the lost and what? You get a character that all you want to do is get his secrets and then wish you could relock him so you don't ever have to accidentally play as him again, because he is just *that* unfun to play as.

[mesoboi wan keboibio]

The fact of matter is, he's not really supposed to be played at ALL now that you think about it. You have to do so much theorycrafting and figure a lot of ♥♥♥♥ out in order to even UNLOCK the lost. Now that you've done all that to unlock him, and figured all that stuff out, you probably are good enough at this game to be able to complete him.

[Soulless]

You just dont get it, and 70 h 100 % completion... crazy

[Bansheebutt]

Yeah sure, I don't get it.

I don't get the appeal of an amazing, psuedo-ARG unlock process hiding the most unappealing reward of the last decade that you end up never wanting to use again.

Originally posted by Soulless:

70 h 100 % completion... crazy

For the sake of your dignity, don't even try to go there.

[Soulless]

relax, I could care less.

[Void]

The problem is that it isn't a legendary challenge. It's a hastily put-together ♥♥♥♥ show. It's such a tedious and boring way to play the game that you wonder if any thought was put into it at all. Beating it is only impressive in the way smashing your head through a brick wall after a few days of repeated bashing is impressive.

[cG. KCIV]

To be honest, I am just glad that there is something hard in this game.

I do admit its very grindy Reset heavy, But If it was easy I woudln't feel good about beating it.

[Bansheebutt]

Winning because you randomly rolled a seed that was workable isn't really a great victory imo.