About the situation with the Devil rooms

[Toxi]

I understand Ed doesn't like them and that they were too consistent or what not, but to me it feels as though the pendulum went from one extreme into the other.

Now, I don't consider myself to be the best player and take as you will from this run I had, but I think this could be seen as evidence about Devil rooms having some serious problems.
I've had a run with The Forgotten on hard and found a Teleporter 2.0 (MJOD XDQ6, for anyone interested), with which I managed to get almost every Angel or Devil room past that floor and because of the path I took, I managed to find 6-7 more of each.

I got 8 Angel rooms, 5 of which I think were from Teleporter 2.0 and by chance, 3 teleports being Devil rooms.
What did I do with that? well, I basically ignored even Brimstone in the Devil room, which with any other character than The Forgotten I would've taken I think, but trading 2 Bone hearts or 3 Soul hearts seemed to me like hardly the worthwhile trade, especially since it came so late into the game, just a few floors from the final boss.

By contrast to, ignoring trash fire like 1 bone heart for Sister Maggie, Headless Baby or Black Powder, Angel rooms even in their least ideal cases, gave me these items.

The Mind.
Glyph of Balance.
7 Seals.
Act of Contrition.
Monstrance.
Paschal Candle.
The Body.
Dead Dove.
The Halo.

The difference here is, if I get dealt a bad hand from a Devil room, either I get absolutely ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ nothing, some black hearts / soul hearts (if I'm lucky with the Red Chests) or I trade something and get rewarded with conniptions and only Some of the times I get a Brimstone, or even something smaller than that.
What I got from this is that, now I'm even more convinced than a few days ago that Angel rooms are the new meta and Devil rooms have been left to die in a gutter.

It's not just that too many devil deal items are weaker than Angel room items, they're weaker than almost any other item pool in the game, Treasure and Boss rooms respectively, not to mention the risk of trading your maximum health just isn't there if you can get stuff for free just by playing the game, checking item rooms and beating bosses, which can be potentially Much better too.

Right now, Angel rooms are better than they've ever been and this was one of their biggest issues before, the bigger one still remains in how hard it is to get them in your most rotten possible runs, but at the same time, Devil rooms are at the weakest that they've ever been. I think that even the Flash game would give you much better by the consistency at which you had actual deals.
If there's a new wave of items that changes this, that's cool and all, but I don't have those and even if I would get them, this still leaves me at this question. Why was it necessary to gut the Devil rooms so much?

So, I want to just know. Why can't both Devil and Angel rooms be great?

[Imposter]

I found that devil rooms are easier to get, than angel rooms. everything appears to be about the same, to me, except it's much tougher to get devil room items, which makes the choices a little easier to ignore certain devil items.

[SeaSaw]

I totally agree, now in 90% of my runs im ignoring devil rooms

[Toxi]

Originally posted by Blasted:

I found that devil rooms are easier to get, than angel rooms. everything appears to be about the same, to me, except it's much tougher to get devil room items, which makes the choices a little easier to ignore certain devil items.

that's just the first thing to note about it and while it's true, you're still always trading red heart containers for anything in a Devil room.

That's the difference between an Angel room and a Devil room, in Devil room you take items at your own risk at the time and later on, where as with Angel room, you just get stuff for free.

[J_cob]

a lot of devil deal items were game winning before repentance. After repentance though, a lot of them were nerfed (brimstone, maw of the void, Athame, etc.), but I don't remember any angel room items being nerfed really.

Originally posted by toxicitzi:

Originally posted by Blasted:

I found that devil rooms are easier to get, than angel rooms. everything appears to be about the same, to me, except it's much tougher to get devil room items, which makes the choices a little easier to ignore certain devil items.

that's just the first thing to note about it and while it's true, you're still always trading red heart containers for anything in a Devil room.

That's the difference between an Angel room and a Devil room, in Devil room you take items at your own risk at the time and later on, where as with Angel room, you just get stuff for free.

I should also mention that if you're going to fight mother you will really need that health, especially if you got pretty bad items already, so you start to question if that 2 hearts for brimstone is really worth it

edit: I think devil deals are still better for the keeper because he doesn't need extra health, which angel rooms have plenty of, and because he can pay with coins not health and he will have a lot of coins from wooden nickel

[Toxi]

Originally posted by J_cob:

a lot of devil deal items were game winning before repentance. After repentance though, a lot of them were nerfed (brimstone, maw of the void, Athame, etc.), but I don't remember any angel room items being nerfed really.

Originally posted by toxicitzi:

that's just the first thing to note about it and while it's true, you're still always trading red heart containers for anything in a Devil room.

That's the difference between an Angel room and a Devil room, in Devil room you take items at your own risk at the time and later on, where as with Angel room, you just get stuff for free.

I should also mention that if you're going to fight mother you will really need that health, especially if you got pretty bad items already, so you start to question if that 2 hearts for brimstone is really worth it

I don't think any of that was necessary, because Angel rooms even after being "buffed" before, they were still lagging behind Devil rooms and that I think was more to do with the way in which you made Angel rooms appear in your runs being the biggest detriment of all.

as for that about the mother fight, I think it's worth it to take the Brimstone, but only on some characters.. For example, I did that with Maggie and it worked out, because you can avoid some of the damage or find more health ups, but that was only by sheer dumb luck that I got it in the first Devil deal. The likelihood of seeing it appear without dumb luck was at least 3 Devil rooms, at least from my experience.

[Ketrai]

It's not just that but I feel like devil rooms have a much higher chance to give you no deal. I've been trying to beat bloody mary a while, and I keep earning devil deals only to get... beggar rooms, soul hearts, krampus or red chests. Not only are the devil deals mostly trash tier items, pricey. But you can barely gst enough actual deals to run into something better. There any reason the bloody shovel is in the devil deal and not the shop.

[Simoko]

I prefer angel rooms much more than devil rooms. Trading red hp (which has gained value in repentance) for an item that probably only gives a dmg up (I almost never see 'good' deals like brimstone etc.) is not worth it.

Whereas I can just skip the devil room, get an angel deal. So many angel deal items are good. I've gotten sacred heart a good few times now. Multiple angel deals and the run is won without trading anything for it. In fact, angel deals can also give eternal and soul hearts and uriel and gabriel are required for mega satan anyway.

Angel deals > Devil deals any day of the week imo

I don't know why bombing the devil statue doesn't spawn the fallen versions of the angels. It makes so much sense that they would. If you don't get angel deals you're more than likely locked out of mega satan.

[Toxi]

Originally posted by Simoko:

I prefer angel rooms much more than devil rooms. Trading red hp (which has gained value in repentance) for an item that probably gives a dmg up (I almost never see 'good' deals like brimstone etc.) is not worth it.

Whereas I can just skip the devil room, get an angel deal. So many angel deal items are good. I've gotten sacred heart a good few times now. Multiple angel deals and the run is won without trading anything for it. In fact, angel deals can also give eternal and soul hearts and uriel and gabriel are required for mega satan anyway.

Angel deals > Devil deals any day of the week imo

good point about Red Heart containers being more valuable, I completely forgot to mention how much more important these are now..

All in all, I don't get how any of this makes sense..
Angel rooms are harder to get, sure, but if you get them, on average they seem to be paying off more consistently than Devil rooms.
At least if I didn't get any other damage item mentioned there, maybe I would've gotten the Guppy transformation, but I guess I get neither then? ok. cool. Guess it's also back to the good old luck game then, or, the luck manipulator, or as I like to call it, the D6.


That may be chalked down to skill, sure, but I don't think it's fair how the team hit Devil rooms as hard as they did with Repentance, while nerfing it every expansion since Rebirth, then nerfing it directly again in Repentance, then suffering other 2 nerfs by proxy of a lot of these other changes in the way the new meta of the game works, of how much more valuable Red Heart containers are and the direct buff Angel rooms have seen.


If the intention was to just avoid Devil rooms in general, all that I think was accomplished here was turning Devil rooms into the equivalent of Rebirth's Boss Challenge rooms.
Note, these are not to be confused with the Flash game's Boss Challenge rooms, because those had an item pedestal in them.
That's harsh, I know, I don't think that Devil rooms are as abysmally terrible as Boss Challenge rooms have been for the better part of all of Rebirth, but I can't help being reminded of those Boss Challenge rooms whenever I peek inside a Devil room and walk out almost immediately, y'know? It's kind of a similar effect and after a while, you get the hint that you're not wanted here, then you just don't bother with entering said room, except once in a blue moon.

[JellyPuff]

What i've learned so far, is that Devil & Angel room items are now relegated to opportunities, rather than neccessities. Also, angel rooms are generally more consistent, especially with the importance of red HP now, so having a bad 1st Devil Deal isn't a huge deal anymore. (edit: Headless Baby/Maggy, Bobby, etc aren't trash. Creep now hits flying enemies, Maggy/Bobby essentially double your damage from base Isaac stats for early game as well as contributing to "Conjoined" in the long run)

Item Rooms are more consistent, due to all the new synergies (hateship ended with Soy Milk, now Almond Milk is my new enemy) some boss items are stronger, Boss Challenge rooms can only be opened with 1 (Any) heart left, but ALWAYS have a boss pedestral inside, etc.

Devil Rooms are just no longer the crux of most runs. They can still easely win you the game, though. It's not like Brimstone or Mom's Knife are garbage items now. Also, if you usually tackle the alt-paths: Don't for a few runs. Gives you a proper comparison to AB+.

I don't know if this was intentional, but also look at it from a completely new player's perspective - no unlocks. Devil Rooms will be god-tier on normal mode still with the better soul heart droprate. But as you unlock more Devil Room items and more Angel Room one's as well (the new one's, like Revelation or Spirit Sword are god-tier) and start to play more on hardmode, the more does the consistency shift towards the latter.
If that was intentional game design for Repentance, it's some serious 200IQ move, given the name of the DLC and new lore. This could also just be a coincidence.

[Toxi]

Originally posted by JellyPuff:

What i've learned so far, is that Devil & Angel room items are now relegated to opportunities, rather than neccessities. Also, angel rooms are generally more consistent, especially with the importance of red HP now, so having a bad 1st Devil Deal isn't a huge deal anymore. (edit: Headless Baby/Maggy, Bobby, etc aren't trash. Creep now hits flying enemies, Maggy/Bobby essentially double your damage from base Isaac stats for early game as well as contributing to "Conjoined" in the long run)

Item Rooms are more consistent, due to all the new synergies (hateship ended with Soy Milk, now Almond Milk is my new enemy) some boss items are stronger, Boss Challenge rooms can only be opened with 1 (Any) heart left, but ALWAYS have a boss pedestral inside, etc.

Devil Rooms are just no longer the crux of most runs. They can still easely win you the game, though. It's not like Brimstone or Mom's Knife are garbage items now. Also, if you usually tackle the alt-paths: Don't for a few runs. Gives you a proper comparison to AB+.

I don't know if this was intentional, but also look at it from a completely new player's perspective - no unlocks. Devil Rooms will be god-tier on normal mode still with the better soul heart droprate. But as you unlock more Devil Room items and more Angel Room one's as well (the new one's, like Revelation or Spirit Sword are god-tier) and start to play more on hardmode, the more does the consistency shift towards the latter.
If that was intentional game design for Repentance, it's some serious 200IQ move, given the name of the DLC and new lore. This could also just be a coincidence.

I don't have a doubt that it may have been intentional, given the name, but as a game and from a game design point of view, this is something I consider to be really bad.

Honestly, even if everyone moves to a more Angel room meta, it's still a pain to get an Angel room to spawn, even if you donate to the donation machine, or are lucky to get both a Sacrifice room and have the necessary health to use it and get lucky to get a Blessing from it, likely ensuring that you'll get an angel room on the 3rd floor.
I understand from that point, why Devil rooms had to be knocked down a peg, they were unanimously favored, but to go from that to Angel rooms becoming the new thing, I think is a mistake, like I said, faintly similar to how Rebirth had "Fixed" Boss Challenge rooms a very long time ago, when it was first released.

Wouldn't it have been easier to ensure that the next floor's Angel room would be 100% and then have that decrease the same way as always? that would be kind of like what I was saying up here.

Originally posted by toxicitzi:

So, I want to just know. Why can't both Devil and Angel rooms be great?

[Stolen]

I mean, I also feel like curse of the blind is an indirect nerf. I had it on the dark room, so obviously none of the items were useful at all. If you were a high hp chara, mag for example, and wanted to get some devil items, you're better off taking some hits and waiting till the next floor if you had the curse.

[Catpuppy]

I do feel like they did a little bit of overcorrection on Devil Rooms. I've been waiting for a buff to Angel Rooms for so long and it finally happened, and I'm really happy about that, and I think Angel Rooms are in a good place now... But Devil Rooms are now significantly worse in comparison, making the meta shift a little too drastically towards Angel roms.

[JellyPuff]

Originally posted by toxicitzi:

So, I want to just know. Why can't both Devil and Angel rooms be great?

So you want Devil Room and Angel Rooms to be cruxes? I don't see a good reason, why they should be the focus of a run. For a decade now, missing a Devil Room could mean losing the run. Now it doesn't. They're still good, but just not "You often need them to win"-good.

Though i still wish, there was a way to get an Angel Room more consistently at least on floor 3. Perhaps have missing a Devil Room on floor 2 due to taking damage have a 50/50 chance for an Angel/Devil Room on floor 3 or something like that.

[Toxi]

Originally posted by JellyPuff:

Originally posted by toxicitzi:

So, I want to just know. Why can't both Devil and Angel rooms be great?

So you want Devil Room and Angel Rooms to be cruxes? I don't see a good reason, why they should be the focus of a run. For a decade now, missing a Devil Room could mean losing the run. Now it doesn't. They're still good, but just not "You often need them to win"-good.

Though i still wish, there was a way to get an Angel Room more consistently at least on floor 3. Perhaps have missing a Devil Room on floor 2 due to taking damage have a 50/50 chance for an Angel/Devil Room on floor 3 or something like that.

I think that in general, Devil rooms need to either rework some of the blank deals with something, even make it free.

For example, we have things like Brother Bobby, Sister Maggie, Ghost Baby, Necronomicon, A Quarter, We Need to Go Deeper, The Bible. These could be repurposed for blank deals, similar to how you have Libraries offer multiple books, except locked with a key and, in order to keep it thematic to a Devil deal, make it be traded in by half a heart, or a full heart worth of damage.
That could help make blank deals not feel as terrible as they do.

Similarly, I also would like the first Angel room to be easier to spawn, because that has been an eternal problem with Angel rooms. I think the reward is more than warranted, because we willingly skipped and didn't even peek inside of a Devil room and instead, here's another idea...
What if the 33% chance for the first Angel room, is a Punishment if you go inside the first Devil room?

[Stolen]

Originally posted by toxicitzi:

Originally posted by JellyPuff:

So you want Devil Room and Angel Rooms to be cruxes? I don't see a good reason, why they should be the focus of a run. For a decade now, missing a Devil Room could mean losing the run. Now it doesn't. They're still good, but just not "You often need them to win"-good.

Though i still wish, there was a way to get an Angel Room more consistently at least on floor 3. Perhaps have missing a Devil Room on floor 2 due to taking damage have a 50/50 chance for an Angel/Devil Room on floor 3 or something like that.

I think that in general, Devil rooms need to either rework some of the blank deals with something, even make it free.

For example, we have things like Brother Bobby, Sister Maggie, Ghost Baby, Necronomicon, A Quarter, We Need to Go Deeper, The Bible. These could be repurposed for blank deals, similar to how you have Libraries offer multiple books, except locked with a key and, in order to keep it thematic to a Devil deal, make it be traded in by half a heart, or a full heart worth of damage.
That could help make blank deals not feel as terrible as they do.

Similarly, I also would like the first Angel room to be easier to spawn, because that has been an eternal problem with Angel rooms. I think the reward is more than warranted, because we willingly skipped and didn't even peek inside of a Devil room and instead, here's another idea...
What if the 33% chance for the first Angel room, is a Punishment if you go inside the first Devil room?

True, I feel like this makes sense. Sometimes I feel walking into a devil deal room punishes you more than not, and while it is thematically fitting, it's not very fun from a gameplay perspective.