Worst Character: The Lost VS Keeper.

[Elmo3000]

Pretty much exactly what the title says. Who do you think is a worse character? The Lost, or Keeper?

The Lost
Pros
+ Starts with Holy Mantle
+ Flight + Spectral Tears
+ Holds D4
+ Devil Deals for free

Cons
- Holy Mantle has to be unlocked
- Health cannot be improved - ever
- Cannot use soul, black, or eternal hearts
- Starting damage is @#&%
- D4 is just as likely to screw you over as help you
- About a quarter of the items are functionally useless but still appear (HP up, anything that gives soul/black/eternal hearts, anything that activates upon taking damage.)

Keeper
Pros
+ Is able to take a hit.
+ Health is easily replenished
+ Starts with triple shot
+ Red Hearts become friendly flies

Cons
- Health can not be improved - ever
- Cannot use soul, black, or eternal hearts
- Incapable of taking powerful Devil Deals (2 hearts damage will always kill)
- No bonus to playing as him to counteract his many flaws
- About a quarter of the items are functionally useless but still appear (HP up, Regeneration, Dark Bum.)

It's amazing how shorter my list of complaints would be if the development team got off their asses and decided 'Hey, you know how there's a whole bunch of items that are literally useless if you're playing as The Lost or Keeper? Why don't we take those out of runs if people are playing as The Lost or Keeper?' Nothing makes me want a refund more than walking into a Treasure Room as Keeper and finding Placenta or Charm of the Vampire. Or finally getting a Devil Deal as The Lost and ending up with Razor Blade and Eve's Dead Bird.

I think Keeper is still slightly easier to play as, but he might also be worse just because there are fewer ways to work around how @%&# he is and he doesn't start with anyone special. Also, in keeping with his theme as the shopkeeper, he should at least start with Steam Sale or something.

So, The Lost or Keeper. Who is better/worse? Thought?

[Stabbed]

I used to hate The Lost. I had to save-scum to actually play as him, and I forgot to switch my gamemode to Hard. Thankfully, in the new DLC, I unlocked Holy Mantle for him. (Never had a bigger squeal of happiness.) I then got The Keeper, and I thought "Oh, triple shot? This will be an easy character."

No.

The Lost is 20 times easier than that load of garbage The Keeper. He needs a buff, and fast.

[rayzones]

why, Lazarus of course.

[Stabbed]

Początkowo opublikowane przez demisun:

why, Lazarus of course.

"Why not Lazarus?"

[Horrow]

Początkowo opublikowane przez ;485622866443330113:

In my opinion, Keeper is not a bad character, neither is The Lost. Both require you to pay attension and be more cautious as you progress. The Lost gets free devil deals, Keeper (after unlocking other stuff he carries) usually has ♥♥♥♥ tons of money and gets the most from shops.

So well, basically I think that they're both good characters in their own ways and are also a really good challenge to play as.

Yes, they are bad characters. There is no way you can argue that they're good when they can't make use of MULTIPLE items in the game. The Lost is especially guilty of this.

[Stabbed]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Horrow:

Początkowo opublikowane przez ;485622866443330113:

In my opinion, Keeper is not a bad character, neither is The Lost. Both require you to pay attension and be more cautious as you progress. The Lost gets free devil deals, Keeper (after unlocking other stuff he carries) usually has ♥♥♥♥ tons of money and gets the most from shops.

So well, basically I think that they're both good characters in their own ways and are also a really good challenge to play as.

Yes, they are bad characters. There is no way you can argue that they're good when they can't make use of MULTIPLE items in the game. The Lost is especially guilty of this.

Neither of them can get health, and The Keeper can't get any 2-heart devil deals (without 9 Lives) or go into a curse room (without telepills, Holy Mantle, or 9 Lives). The Lost has some leeway, starting with Holy Mantle, and getting devil deals for free. So, in my opinion, The Lost is umpteen times better than The Keeper.

[BadEvilWrong]

I'm not sure how I would rank my skill level. Let's say I'm good enough to scoff at Azazel's over-nerf, but not good enough to get anything done with the Lost pre-mantle.

If we're talking about the Lost vs the Keeper, I will definitely say that the Keeper sucks more. The second I got my mitts on him, I went back and immediately scored 6/9 of the Lost's acheivements with little trouble. Now, I can't seem to get anywhere with the Keeper without tech x.

I've even had him with brimstone. I still died quickly, but having triple blaaaarrrggh was awesome.

[owlsonly]

The Lost has gotten far more interesting with Holy Mantle, but him and the Keeper are still within the same tier. Both are RNG dependent, as you do need power to win. Hard for me to say one is better than the other though. Granted you can cheat your way along with the lost by simply exiting ever time you get hit. But playing legitimately the fact that Keeper is able to take multiple to even infinite hits in a room is a huge advantage, especially with stopwatch. The lack of easy/good devil deals does suck, but triple shot means any tear/damage upgrades ramp up quicker.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Elmo3000:

It's amazing how shorter my list of complaints would be if the development team got off their asses and decided 'Hey, you know how there's a whole bunch of items that are literally useless if you're playing as The Lost or Keeper? Why don't we take those out of runs if people are playing as The Lost or Keeper?' Nothing makes me want a refund more than walking into a Treasure Room as Keeper and finding Placenta or Charm of the Vampire. Or finally getting a Devil Deal as The Lost and ending up with Razor Blade and Eve's Dead Bird.

Thought?

If they took out all those items then both characters would be too powerful. They were meant to be a challenge, not good.

[bullex]

The Lost is better. It has room to room replenishable Holy Mantle, can take all deals with the devil for free and has the amazing maneuverability thanks to flying and spectral tears.

Keeper on the other hand is slow (Maggie's base speed, which is 0.85, the rest of characters have speed at 1.0+ level), has low rate of fire, negative luck (-2) and 2 points of 'health' (so to recap - they created a terrible character and gave him no health, way to go). Not to mention - he can't take deals with the devil worth 2 hearts. But he can take brother bobby. And get hit by a fly and die in one hit in the next room.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Shadowspaz:

But on the topic of coins, get Swallowed Penny, be mindful, and you're invincible.

'Mindful' meaning: 'have enough luck to not get pushed away from the coin as it drops'. And you're talking about getting 1 specific item. One of 450. I can say the same thing about The Lost. 'Oh, just get Brimstone / Dead Cat / Mom's Knife in your first deal with the devil'

Początkowo opublikowane przez Shadowspaz:

Also, health ups do increase his health- If he's at one. It's just capped at two.

Yup. So you can take necronomicon in the deal with the devil, then take hp up and be happy ;)

Początkowo opublikowane przez Elmo3000:

Nothing makes me want a refund more than walking into a Treasure Room as Keeper and finding Placenta or Charm of the Vampire. Or finally getting a Devil Deal as The Lost and ending up with Razor Blade and Eve's Dead Bird.

Placenta / charm of the vampire / leech - all of those work with Keeper. If you're down one coin, this stuff will heal you. And useless The Lost items... Look, both characters have a large pool of useless items, but what makes Keeper worse imo is the fact that they had to hardcode some changes to original items to prevent breaking the game (piggy bank for example, it only drops coins ocassionally with Keeper)

The biggest bummer in Keeper's case though is that he's not fun to play. I'd rather take free devil deals as the lost, reroll crap items with Isaac, play as chars with actual good stats (cain, judas, ???, lazarus - dmg multipliers and decent rate of fire), samson with blood lust, eve with ♥♥♥♥♥ of babylon, eden with varied stats and items, powerful azazel, interesting Lilith, tanky Maggie... Not this slow, helpless, miserable ♥♥♥♥ :P

EDIT: oh and if you take damage on the floor or against the boss as Keeper - it count as red heart damage. So bye bye deals of any kind.

[Katia]

Keeper can have more health containers (coin containers as i like to call it) by donating ANOTHER 999 + 1 coins to greed machine.

[Deadbubble]

Początkowo opublikowane przez a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sputnik:

Keeper can have more health containers (coin containers as i like to call it) by donating ANOTHER 999 + 1 coins to greed machine.

Nope, do not do this. It does nothing.

[SeitoD]

I say they are both equal

Reason is because I feel they both have their pros and cons. However both characters all lead up to how lucky your runs are or how much you have unlocked in the game. For instance.
You can get Judas's Tongue one run as the keeper and simply Rock! Or you can just get screwed over by Duke of the flies in a Curse of the blind soy milk first floor.
However I will say this.
Even though a lot of people love greed mode absolutely. Its really way to easy. In Hard Mode you have challenge and more acomplishment (However even more death).
I will end it like this.
I believe The Keeper is better than the lost if you unlock every single item which he starts with. If you do that then you will have a good easy time if you stay safe. However if you are retarded than the Lost is better and the keeper sucks balls.

[qmaster019]

Free devil deals for the Lost go a long way in making it a viable character, but it's almost the opposite for the Keeper. The Keeper can't in all likeliness take two heart devil deals without dying, and even one heart devil deals are a threat because you're reduced to one hit-point.That's regardless of the fact that any hit against the Keeper counts as red heart damage, which severely hurts your chances at getting a devil deal in the first place.

So, I would say that the Keeper is worse because he's so much more difficult to really get a solid run going with. Many of those devil room items are what give runs enough momentum to win; without those, you have to rely on item rooms or the shop potentially.

[Kuhaa]

The Lost and Keeper are both incredibly fun characters to play as and neither of them requires any buffs or changes to the game mechanic for their benefit. Yes, some items are useless but The Lost compensates for that by being able to take all the devil deals. You have to unlcok Holy Mantle but the same applies for The D6. Your lists make no sense, and they make it look like you just dislike taking a different approach to the game and want everything handed to you with no effort.

Many of the "cons" you've listed for Keeper on the other hand are not only false but also make excellent examples of your bias:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Elmo3000:

Keeper

Cons
- Health can not be improved - ever
- Cannot use soul, black, or eternal hearts
- Incapable of taking powerful Devil Deals (2 hearts damage will always kill)
- No bonus to playing as him to counteract his many flaws
- About a quarter of the items are functionally useless but still appear (HP up, Regeneration, Dark Bum.)

- False. What you're trying to say is that health can not be improved past two containers. That's enough health to be able to get hit as many times as you like because by the time you might get hit more than once per room you should have made an effort to have a way to generate coins (you do know that you can just buy Wooden Nickle if you haven't unlocked it for the Keeper yet?).

- False. Keeper can use soul, black or eternal hearts. They turn into flies. That's free dps increase on an occasion and you're complaining? Heart drops are really common too and you get flies for hearts that would otherwise been unaccsessible.

- False. Keeper can take 2 heart devil deals. You just need a revival item (which there are plenty of) or a Strength card, which gives Keeper a permanent coin container. Just need to be careful with it and time it right. You can also use Diplopia or Credit card, you know the same tricks that every other character has access to? It's not as bad as you're trying to make it sound.

- False/Matter of opinion.There is a bonus for playing him. As long as you leave all the money on the ground you can play sacrifice rooms as much as you want (and coins are a common reward from sacrifice rooms anyway). If you have a way to generate coins (which should obviously be the first priority on any Keeper run) they're basically free. Since sacrifice rooms reset between floors, this is a great advantage.

- False. A quarter of the items? You just pulled this one out of your ass. Health upgrades are useful if you get a health down, respawn with just one coin or take a devil deal. They also heal you if you've taken damage. They're a great resource but of course that doesn't matter to you because you just want to get max health and steamroll each floor with no effort at all. :)

Health regeneration works with Charm of the Vampire, Placenta and Leech just like they should. Please stop spreading lies.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Elmo3000:

It's amazing how shorter my list of complaints would be if the development team got off their asses and decided 'Hey, you know how there's a whole bunch of items that are literally useless if you're playing as The Lost or Keeper? Why don't we take those out of runs if people are playing as The Lost or Keeper?'

It's amazing how much less you would complain if you got off your ass and decided to focus on getting good as either of these characters instead of spending your time and energy writing lengthy posts online that in the end amount to nothing but empty whining about certain characters being too hard.

Throughout your post you also seem to completely disregard the fact that on an average run with any chracater you'll end up finding tons of items you don't want. Is getting a refund your first reaction in general whenever something happens that you don't like?

What we really should be talking about is whether Lazarus sucks more or less than Maggy.

[McKnuckles]

HP ups for the keeper are still useful if you did something to get rid of one of your 'hearts' (like getting a one heart devil deal, it won't go past max you can have for him though).

[Thierrymon]

The keeper is worse by a long shot.