the main difference (comparison since repentance)

[Biirz]

First of all, I think I can be called a die hard fan of isaac. I have 1150 hours of gameplay on steam, just about the same on ps4 and I also have it on switch.

For me, the binding of Isaac is the best game I ever played (for now) period.

You kind of know where I am going with this post right? Yes I am disapointed... but that's not the topic of this post. The topic is : what changed? Why am I disappointed? well I think I found out :

Isaac before repentance was about knowledge of the game, with repentance, it is clearly about skill and RNG (mostly RNG). Before, I could count on the fact that I knew everything about the game to find a way to the credits on almost each run, knowledge was the key, experience was the essence of the game.

Now, knowledge won't do s**t... yes it can help, but it's the RNG that will determine your success, and it sucks. For example, one trap room can ruin your whole run! You can be full life, it doesn't matter, if you have the bad luck of entering the worst trap room ever, well, guess you'll die...

I am not discovering the dlc as I have obviously done antibirth and loved it. There's something about the balance between fun and skill that doesn't work in repentance.

I loved when knowledge was the key... now I just feel like i can lose a run (lose my time) due to rng BS.

I don't hope this will go back to the way it was, I'm just counting on mods now... I am so sad...

[Jevmen]

A rogelike must have a good RNG/Skill ratio.
Low RNG, many skill = repetitive and boring
Many RNG, low skill = frustrating and unrewarding
Medium RNG, medium skill = Gud

This is a problem i have with many rogelikes but The binding of isaac Repentance fixed the problem of TBOI depending too much about RNG

[Striped]

Takes like these specifically for Repentance are so weird to me since people have been saying the same exact thing about how Afterbirth+ (and previous iterations) is so reliant on RNG to have a "good run" for years now. Like, seriously, the one of the big reasons of why AB+ was so polarizing (beyond the low quality content in general) was because of countless complaints that RNG was so heavy and that the item pools were so bloated. And now Repentance is out and people are making the exact same arguments all over again, just with the rebalancing to point at as a new justification. There's nothing special about Repentance, it's the same game. The meta has shifted, items have been nerfed (but many are still incredibly powerful regardless) but countless items have been buffed and many new combos were added, along with some busted new unlocks. This is a complaint levied at Isaac in general, and is not unique to Repentance. Knowledge is still as important as ever. As is skill. But RNG is always prevalent as well, and is no stronger than before (I would even argue a lot of the buffs and the new meta shift even help mitigate it a bit, after spending god knows how many hours with this DLC and learning it). Item bloat especially makes this a massive challenge for the game designers, but I feel as though Kilburn has at least done a great job with it so far given what he has to deal with, but it'll never be perfect and there's still work to be done.

Your post doesn't really give any examples as to why you might feel this way, as in what changes would cause this, so I can only speculate. The more time I spend on this DLC, the less I understand takes that accuse it of being unfun, tedious, too hard, too RNG heavy, etc. because they feel more like knee-jerk reactions or simply problems not unique to Repentance.

[Biirz]

Originally posted by Mills:

Takes like these specifically for Repentance are so weird to me since people have been saying the same exact thing about how Afterbirth+ (and previous iterations) is so reliant on RNG to have a "good run" for years now. Like, seriously, the one of the big reasons of why AB+ was so polarizing (beyond the low quality content in general) was because of countless complaints that RNG was so heavy and that the item pools were so bloated. And now Repentance is out and people are making the exact same arguments all over again, just with the rebalancing to point at as a new justification. There's nothing special about Repentance, it's the same game. The meta has shifted, items have been nerfed (but many are still incredibly powerful regardless) but countless items have been buffed and many new combos were added, along with some busted new unlocks. This is a complaint levied at Isaac in general, and is not unique to Repentance. Knowledge is still as important as ever. As is skill. But RNG is always prevalent as well, and is no stronger than before (I would even argue a lot of the buffs and the new meta shift even help mitigate it a bit, after spending god knows how many hours with this DLC and learning it). Item bloat especially makes this a massive challenge for the game designers, but I feel as though Kilburn has at least done a great job with it so far given what he has to deal with, but it'll never be perfect and there's still work to be done.

Your post doesn't really give any examples as to why you might feel this way, as in what changes would cause this, so I can only speculate. The more time I spend on this DLC, the less I understand takes that accuse it of being unfun, tedious, too hard, too RNG heavy, etc. because they feel more like knee-jerk reactions or simply problems not unique to Repentance.

I hear what you say, but you know, this is the first time I feel like it on Isaac. I had no complains wahtsoever about the previous DLCs. I am not one of those disapoited by A+, I just loved every bit of the game since now.

I also hear what you say about the lack of examples I can give. Well, I don't think it's about examples, the way I feel is what it is, a feeling. I can't give you some examples telling I dislike this or that. The only thing I can tell you is that I used to play Isaac everyday for years, and now I'm just not spending good times on it, I am not having fun in general.

After spending thousands of hours on it, I am just so sad I have come to this conclusion. This is not a bashing post, if people are having fun on it it is great. I just feel like I lost something important today...

[Magus Coldfire]

I think it's okay like it is now. You will never satisfy everyone with an update and balance changes. TRhis update is clearly made for the more skilled players. But the knowledge part is still very very important. Like that many people don't use the sacrifice room at the first floor. On many runs I could sacrifice 9 hearts on the first floor, giving me the key and making it much more likely to get angel rooms. And don't forget the chests, coins and soul hearts you can generate by the sacrifice room. Then there is the secret and super secret room. You don't have a bomb? Use exploding enemies to your advantage! Same goes for inked/marked rocks. And curse room? Don't ever go in it before killing the boss if you want a devil/angel room to appear. At least, if you only have red hearts left. But go in there after defeating the boss!

There is so much knowledge which still applies to Repetance and they added even more (like planetarium or getting another boss item in the mirror world). The only thing the made more difficult is the skill part and that is quite okay I think. And they countered that by adding a "?"-Item as a second option in every golden room, giving the player a chance to get a useful item if the shown item doesn't benefit you.

[jayhena]

pools didn't really get bloated imo on repentance, quite the opposite, so you have better runs on average. stappler in boss pool, eye drops in boss pool, new items all being pretty good. special item system finally removed. angel room finally being reliable past "you didn't get a sacrifice room ? too bad get f*cked", and with donation machine in all shops so you can skew your odds toward angel more often too. the shop suffered a lot, but it's still a good source of items.

[kone]

Currently experiencing Eden win streaks in 100% Repentance and the game really is harder, requires even more skill and knowledge. More than I expected in my eyes. I've been finding it more exciting to be challenged for the first time in a long time. It's not easy anymore is all. Give it some time.

[HazoVigi]

I was a bit sceptical with some of the changes at launch but now that I've played it for while I must say I'm loving it. I think people are mad because they're losing more often than before, which is only logical with new content. How do you expect to have knowledge on something new without putting in the hours? Did you beat hush or greedier on your first try when they came out? Losing a run doesn't mean you're wasting your time, each death teaches you a lesson. Why did I die, was it a lack of skill or some new enemy/boss that I didn't know how to deal with? Or maybe I shouldn't have played that blood machine or taken that devil deal, maybe I should have checked that shop two floors ago. That's how you gain knowledge, by failing and trying again.

[abyss]

Originally posted by Magus Coldfire:

I think it's okay like it is now. You will never satisfy everyone with an update and balance changes. TRhis update is clearly made for the more skilled players. But the knowledge part is still very very important. Like that many people don't use the sacrifice room at the first floor. On many runs I could sacrifice 9 hearts on the first floor, giving me the key and making it much more likely to get angel rooms. And don't forget the chests, coins and soul hearts you can generate by the sacrifice room. Then there is the secret and super secret room. You don't have a bomb? Use exploding enemies to your advantage! Same goes for inked/marked rocks. And curse room? Don't ever go in it before killing the boss if you want a devil/angel room to appear. At least, if you only have red hearts left. But go in there after defeating the boss!

There is so much knowledge which still applies to Repetance and they added even more (like planetarium or getting another boss item in the mirror world). The only thing the made more difficult is the skill part and that is quite okay I think. And they countered that by adding a "?"-Item as a second option in every golden room, giving the player a chance to get a useful item if the shown item doesn't benefit you.

The biggest difference when it comes to Repentance is that in suddenly upping the difficult to such a high degree, they alienated a huge portion of players who previously loved the game (like myself) in an effort to cater specifically to the ultra hardcore diehard group, who have now come out in spades to gloat and tell everybody to "git gud" because the only way they can feel joy is by feeling superior to random strangers on the internet.

If this game was some brand new thing still in early access and development, the changes in Repentance would be understandable (they'd still suck, but they wouldn't feel like a kick in the teeth to longtime fans). But BOI:R is 7 years old, now! (even older if you count the original Flash game) and it remained laergely untouched for most of that time. To suddenly implement this huge shift in difficulty and the reliance of RNG vs game knowlege (a sentiment I agree with) has pulled the rug out from under tonnes of players.

Also? The double item rooms used to be better in the original Antibirth mod, they were nerfed - like so many other things - in Repentance, and they only show up in the (more difficult) Alt Path floors like Downpour and Mines. Normal route rooms don't give double items normally.

[Biirz]

Originally posted by kitten exterminator:

Currently experiencing Eden win streaks in 100% Repentance and the game really is harder, requires even more skill and knowledge. More than I expected in my eyes. I've been finding it more exciting to be challenged for the first time in a long time. It's not easy anymore is all. Give it some time.

exactly, and it is just the thing I'm not looking for when I have spare time to play.

Originally posted by HazoVigi:

I was a bit sceptical with some of the changes at launch but now that I've played it for while I must say I'm loving it. I think people are mad because they're losing more often than before, which is only logical with new content. How do you expect to have knowledge on something new without putting in the hours? Did you beat hush or greedier on your first try when they came out? Losing a run doesn't mean you're wasting your time, each death teaches you a lesson. Why did I die, was it a lack of skill or some new enemy/boss that I didn't know how to deal with? Or maybe I shouldn't have played that blood machine or taken that devil deal, maybe I should have checked that shop two floors ago. That's how you gain knowledge, by failing and trying again.

I'm not discovering everything about the DLC because I did enjoy a lot antibirth (I have some hundred hours on it) and it is not the deaths that annoys me, it is the fact that fun have been replaced by (moslty unfair) challenge.
I'm not saying that it's impossible, I have beaten the corpse a lot of time, I have won the challenge with the polaroid/negative door some times. It is just that even when I win, I don't spend a good time, each time is mostly grinding and hoping the game will help me in any way.
As I said before, challenge and grinding for the win is not what I liked to do on Isaac, I just played for fun since rebirth exists. Now I have a hard time finding the fun.
Each run feel like a pain, and even when I win, all that comes to my mind is : "well... that was a bad run... happy it's finally over!". And yes, for me a good run is not a winning run. For me a good run is a fun run.

[garr]

I feel i am being locked out of contend in the game. I see no way to unlock the forgotten now and i dont see me unlocking the tainted chars.
And yes it is a lack in skill on my part but before the repentance dlc threre was a chance to get a item (or combo) to help you like pyromaniac and host hat for the forgotten unlock.

[Gregor]

It's something about the speed.
It just feels a bit different.
The change on Brimstone and Azazel, it's just feelable if you've relied so much and so often on the character, it's something you can notice on healthbars of things like monstro and even the common red fly feels different to kill.
Lots of patterns to learn....
Bombs just got a huge buff, and if you didn't rely on them like me, got to learn to use them....
The lost not having the D4 , while holy mantle can't get rolled away, looks like I haven't learned to value the eternal D6 yet, since I mostly just learned , that it can remove the item out of the room....
Guess that's about it.
At least the major things I see, beside the alternative paths with enemies that I already started to dislike (-: Though , to me that's a huge + in gamedesign.
To me this game is a lot about struggle and it added many things to struggle with , which is a huge upsidem except for my nerves ;)
Epic Fetus moved from the Treasure room pool, to the Secret Room Pool, is a major change, as it was one of the strongest items ingame.
Shops on floor 1 open.
Entering the first Devildeal, will lower the chance of an Angelroom.
More Characters....
+200 achievements o0....nice...
guess that sums it up for now. I might return and add things if I know them , since I've seen people write about things still locked to me.