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You're still likely to get more deals than every 3 floors, the chances are decent, especially if you blow up beggars and shopkeepers, or warp directly via red chests or Joker card. It's still some luck, but so is the whole game, including the items in the devil deal. I usually end up with Devil Deals/Angel Rooms once every 2 floors.
Nevermind, sorry for wasting everyones time reading this, this tells me enough, i'm out, PepegaClap
It depends if you're the speedrunning type or the slow roll type, and being the kind of guy who hates grinding in video games, right now I'd rather get all the unlocks ASAP so I can play casually with all the new stuff. And with all the new characters it'll take a ton of time.
Also, if we're considering resetting a bad thing, then that makes the bad Devil Deal pool even more harmful. Like I said though, that's too much of a time loss for me, so it doesn't impact me.
These got nerfed and I don't like it either, but they can still work. I still think this is over correcting though, people can say skill till they're blue in the face, but in this kind of game it's impossible to cultivate skill consistently due to the very nature that the game is, so the best thing you can hope for is to keep playing, for hours and hours on end and then maybe Incrementally develop that skill, depending on how often you're met again with the situation that you struggled with before..
also, a side note on Angel rooms, even if they're buffed, I will say for now that the design of their appearance is garbage and I hate them for that reason, so if Ed wanted me to use Angel rooms more, I don't understand why I have to go through 3-4 floors without anything, because of the even dumber decision of still keeping the reduction of Angel/Devil room chances, despite purposefully not even entering a Devil room on the floor prior to the current one.
THAT'S AWESOME! Thanks, Ed! Awesome design on these Angel Rooms that you want us to use, but are too scared of letting us get, because, of some reason.
How anyone is seriously surprised that people prefer Devil rooms to Angel rooms, that is some backwards thinking right there.. How could people not prefer them over Angel rooms? That is the better question here.
Long answer: you have 3 flight options in Devil rooms (not counting Angel rooms) which in turn make the difficulty of the game a joke. You have another 2 if you consider the Leviathan and Guppy transformations.
Assuming you've picked up previous Devil deals (which you should, as Leviathan is especially easy to acquire since most marks give you damage ups or other such bonuses) the latter become a very real possibility.
You usually have no other ways to acquire flight - you have one in the golden chest pool and one as a rare secret room item.
If you're good at the game Devil Deals are pretty much free items. There is no reason to have over half a bar of health, ever. Health up items are pretty easy to come by, most boss drops are health ups and those can be used to boost damage or tear firerate when you're not given the right items on the floor you've just beaten if you use those deals (assuming RNG gives you good ones).
Health should be used to exploit the game's vendors and mechanics (Devil Deals, Devil Beggars, Curse Rooms, Blood Donation Machines for shop money), NOT as a way to avoid dying. If you're still getting hit to the point where you need more than 3-4 hearts to live you're bad and need to continue practicing.
EDIT: That's not to mention Devil Deals being the best way to acquire good items in some Daily Runs and Challenges (with the other being boss loot).
Out of curiosity, what items have you been getting recently besides Brimstone? Because I've been getting the usual Black powder, Empty Vessel, Lord of the Pit, Shade... with something like Ceremonial Robes or The Pact every 3 Deals or so. And 2 of the runs where I decided to take such items ended up dying later as I couldn't afford my 2nd or 3rd deals. I also got my most broken run recently with Trisagion that along other items let me beat the final boss damageless, so for all I know, maybe I've been having really bad luck with Devil Deals. Also, 6 hearts is a pretty rare occurence, unless you took ONLY brimstone, got mostly HP ups from bosses (on Isaac that'd be 5 HP ups) or some way of consistently getting heart containers.
On a full red heart build you can play Sacrifice Rooms consistently too, which as I said, can replace Devil Deals well and give you an item every 2 rooms on average, as well making Boss Challenge room access easier and usually boosting survivability in the long run. On top of other perks like donation machine, Demon Beggar plays, full heals with the Sun card, etc. The only Soul Heart based build perks are better Devil Deal chances (and you can usually leave a soul heart on the floor for the start of the next one anyways) and a small handful of items that depend on no heart containers.
Also, in both of these runs I was able to more safely play all the Boss Challenge rooms by having health recovery usables and hearts around the floor, and I ended up getting 2-3 extra boss items in each run, both with at least one damage up, along tears up and such.
Had a Bad Trip in my pill pool, which allowed to play out two Devil Beggars in my second run. Also had an easier time playing Sacrifice Rooms, which gave me a ton more soul hearts, one warped me to an Angel Room, and another gave me an item. I had decent items to get me through the main floors before I started snowballing, but you'll likely need decent items to survive some harder parts of the early game too if you are going for Devil Deals.
I'm curious if you guys actually tried an Angel Room since this DLC released. Like, genuinely curious - I want to know if it's my luck or you guys are just insisting on sticking to OG Rebirth strats. Also, all my runs have been to the final boss to unlock more characters, so maybe that changes things, as I haven't been going to the Womb and ownwards.
I have been getting less HP ups since Repentance released. Alright, bad luck I guess.
Having a lot of hearts certainly helps with exploiting said mechanics, especially with Boss Challenge rooms which have you drop to critical health now every floor you find them (if you want to play them). As I said, red health is easier to recover, more so than soul hearts.
No objections on Dailies, or Boss Rush/Hush for that matter. Playing out health related mechanics takes time.
I 100%'d this game before, and I'll do it again with a Mantle-less Lost if I had to. I think I'm just as good as you are.
EDIT: Also, the argument "If you are good, you don't need health" has always been stupid in most video games. If you get something like double damage for most of it, fair enough. But if the difference something like 20%, then having 6 hits vs 12 hits is still a good safety buffer, especially if you are suffering from some gimmicky build that's risky and has you taking damage. (EDIT2: And, well, if you have to beat the boss with a ton of characters and don't want losing runs just to practice) And with health recovery, you'll probably get more than 12 hits.
Interesting how both Angel rooms offered literally the only 2 options for flight if you're going down the Angel room path for you. Good RNG. Angel rooms are objectively harder to get into (or gain good items from, if at all), which is precisely why I have not talked about them.
You get a guaranteed Angel room if you pass up a Devil room now (in the Repentance DLC), which requires you to complete an entire floor undamaged (for a 99% chance) only after which you may have a shot at it next floor, OR postpone it for another floor (2 floors without special items) if you did take red heart damage on the first floor whatsoever which already puts you behind on a good item curve you could've achieved easily with regular Devil deals otherwise (albeit with lower health, which shouldn't matter if you're strong enough since nothing can compete with you).
You come out of the first or second floors (VERY earlygame) with no special item to pay out for your efforts - this item may have very well been a significant upgrade (such as flight, Brimstone, Mom's Knife, fear shot, nail shot, damage or tears up which would scale with the enemies next floor), already putting you behind on the aforementioned item curve (multiple Devil deals versus one potential Angel room item). You can also take multiple deals, this is never the case with Angel room items.
Let's not forget that RNG can punish you with Angel room items locked behind locks that require keys you may not have (I usually don't have more than 3 keys after 2 floors, and those I use up on item rooms, shops and golden chests for flight or damage ups). Downpour also requires one key and missing that may bar you from completing an entire route for one character.
Multiple item choice does not matter when you can't access even a single item, or if all items are bad - which, let's admit it, happens very often in Angel rooms (I'll get to this in a second). You then come out empty handed again. What's the worst that could happen in Devil deal rooms, which take much less effort to spawn? No items. Besides, when items do spawn, there's also a choice in there too.
Sure the Angel room items are free (so are Devil room items if they spawn from a Cursed chest or you're playing Lost), but let's also not forget Angel room items are mostly inferior - most items that "bless" you revolve around soul hearts or halved damage, which is garbage - with Devil rooms containing 3 times the damage and tear up items (which is really what should matter most to you aiming to continue not taking damage to continue getting deals and getting stronger).
Furthermore, many Devil room items synergize well with having little to no red hearts - Curse of Babylon, Empty Vessel, Dark Prince Crown, Dead Cat (which is also a Guppy item) - which is great because you're already losing hearts to those deals anyway. Many items will further protect you and give you soul or black hearts for the red hearts replaced; Abaddon, The Mark, The Pact, Ceremonial Robes. There are no such synergies with Angel room items from what I remember.
Lastly, let's not forget about the main Devil room spawn boosters:
Versus Angel rooms:
- Miss the first Devil room - go one or two floors without a stat boost, preventing you from further taking no damage or getting extra items (with potential flight).
- Donate 10 coins to donation machine - requires you to use up a key for a shop, may not spawn, may jam preventing from further boosting throughout the entire run, or you may not have enough coins on that floor / may need the currency for something else (some shop items are extremely valuable).
- Have a beggar pay out their price - 6-18 coins you may not have, if one spawns at all. Keep in mind run changing items spawn in the shop for 15 coins, which you may need to save up for during the first couple floors of a run.
- Using sacrifice room - heavily RNG-based, already losing health for a much lesser payout (POTENTIAL +15% boost for 3 hearts of damage which could've taken you into 3 Cursed rooms instead).
- Key pieces - require you to have already visited the Angel room at least once, defeating the whole purpose of the boost.
- Eucharist - guarantees Angel room spawns but same as above, is heavily RNG-based and has no other purpose.
- Rosary Bead trinket - heavily RNG-based, takes up the space of much better trinkets like Cancer, Curved Horn, Cracked Crown etc.
Doesn't look like a good trade to me unfortunately.Seraphim is infinitely harder to get because Angel rooms are harder to spawn and sometimes have requirements to actually getting to their items (keys). The Guppy transformation is actually much easier to get than Leviathan (the equivalent of Seraphim) because its items are common as all can be obtained from Cursed rooms only, no need for deals. It works not only as flight but also as an extremely overpowered tear upgrade, and is actually what I aim for in most of my runs.
What the hell are you talking about? You're gonna have a really bad time without flight in Womb, as most enemies spawn creep (sometimes you can barely even see it) and throughout it are many "puzzle" rooms which require you to avoid or maneuver around spikes to press buttons or eliminate enemies.
Not every item can be gotten to with a bomb, half the items will usually lay behind pits or be locked behind locks which you can move around with flight. Will you really use one bomb in exchange for a coin, or a soul heart, or a tarot card? With flight you could've gotten those effortlessly, and those eventually get you shop items or full max health.
What about hiding behind rocks when being shot at? What about fighting multiple Harbingers or creep-dependent bosses in Chest all at once? What about rooms that force you into chokes with flying enemies in Downpour or Catacombs? You can't be serious. Flight is an incredibly useful tool and you should aim to get it whenever you get the chance to (if doing so does not put your run in jeopardy, but even that can be debated just because of how good flight is).
If you have no damage or tears up by floor 3 you may as well just quit the run. Same thing about reaching Womb with damage or firerate not being maxed out. There's simply no point; killing enemies is a chore and more of a test of patience than anything else. It is something you could've achieved much easily if RNG was in your favor, so may as well restart and try again.
You'd be spending less time restarting a run and getting to the same point with better RNG than struggling through the endgame with bad gear and items. It's more efficient this way. You are trying to unlock characters and get achievements, after all, no?
I have also gotten all my Lost stuff back when it didn't even have the Holy Mantle option and would do so again without a problem. I know a thing or two about the game after 500 hours of gameplay, or at least know enough to tell you going for the lesser items in Angel rooms is almost never worth it (although if you do get bad Devil deals maybe skip those to have a go at the free Angel items anyway).
TL;DR this post was made by the devil room gang
As for that run, as I said, I only picked up 2 Devil items, Brimstone and Blood Oath.
Getting 6 heart containers could be rare, but I was able to do it the last 2 times with Lazarus too, if it's a combination of items, or white hearts, it can happen, even though sometimes, it would likely be better to have soul/black hearts instead.
Maybe it's more of some bad luck when you don't, because I know I had some of those runs too.
On Devil room items, I've seen Money = Power twice, Blood Oath a few times, 2Spooky about 3 times, Oculus and Sulfur quite a bit too.
On some occasions I recall seeing some guppy pieces too, as well as Lord of the PIt, Spirit of the Night, Evil Cloak, Dark Matter, Death's scythe, Missing Page 2, Contract from Below, Necronomicon and False PHD.
I've not yet seen Abaddon once, or ♥♥♥♥♥ of Babylon, or even something like the Pact, but I remember that one was pretty rare in AB+ too.
Really?... I've been trying sometimes to play Sacrifice rooms and all I get is either a penny, or a normal chest, after walking about 3-5 times into the spikes, almost like any other time I've ever tried Sacrifice rooms since Rebirth and been very disappointed in them.
Also, on the subject of Angel rooms, I've been on a Lazarus run to the Depths/Necropolis 2 secret door and all the way up to that, on boss fights I found only one Angel Room and one Devil room oddly enough, which spawned from 25.3% chance over a 42.2% chance of an Angel room.
There was a second Angel room I found, but it doesn't count, it was a Joker teleport from a red chest on a floor with no access to it besides a teleport.
So, after all of those floors, I only got one real Angel room in Downpour 2, that had just Crown of the Light and the second Angel room I found that shouldn't have happened, which had, a Spear of Destiny. I'm glad I found Crown of Light first, because that helped with not taking any damage on any floors.
This is my first venture into Angel rooms and anyway, this is pretty much like what I was saying. It's not just a problem of them not feeling that rewarding, getting them at all is the biggest issue of Angel rooms bar none.
If any counter argument needs Goat head to make Angel rooms work, that only further confirms how ♥♥♥♥♥♥ the situation is. You don't really Need 7 or more Devil rooms to appear in a single run, you will probably do fine after 2-3, you'd only need more if you've been very unlucky.
1st deal - Dead cat, Beheaded Baby. Off to a great start eh? I end up rerolling both, and not taking Dead cat turns out to be a good idea I'd say.
Reroll - Eye of The Occult, Judas' Shadow. I take Eye of The Occult. Judas' Shadow is one of the best offensive items when used properly, but a) WHEN USED PROPERLY. After the nerf, he is a black heart based character, so way less devil deals for you if you use him early. and b) 90% of the game you'll be unlocking stuff with X character, so changing them is undesirable.
I also get a HP up pill, and Vurp afterwards, so this is a prime devil deal run, right? I'm doing all normal floors by the way.
2nd deal, Krampus for lump of coal - lmao. At least it's not the head. I don't have a charge on the d6, but if you NEED to reroll to get good items, then that's most of the characters down the trash, and Angel Deals let you reroll two items if you beat the angel, unless that was changed.
3rd deal, Depths II, Empty Vessel for 3 soul hearts and Necronomicon. I fail to make Boss Rush because after clearing the enemies in the room, I sit on my ass laughing for half a minute, not that'd I'd want to Boss Rush with this build. I have 5 HP and 3 soul hearts by the way. Even if I only had 2 HP and wanted to throw them away, I'd STILL not be able to do so because Devil Deals can randomly cost Soul Hearts now. This is actually even worse than I thought when making this post.
Womb 1 - I end up taking 4 hits (shoddy, I know - the core of the build was triple shot, tears upgrades and white pepper, but the way EofO controls it a bit troublesome, so I'm hoping that's a decent excuse), but all of them are from bad tear avoiding, and there's a ton of floor to walk no. No damage from traps either. So flight wouldn't help anyways.
Womb 2- flawless the whole thing, including It Lives and get a Devil deal - False PHD and Spirit of the Night. Such good items, much wow. I take Spirit of the Night (BECAUSE FLIGHT OP AMIRITE) and reroll, to get ♥♥♥♥♥ of Babylon as I'm ONLY ON RED HEARTS. I complained about devil runs with no health, but on the opposite side, you have things like this, where the deals are garbage and Krampus makes a visit so you take nothing. This MIGHT work with Empty Vessel and if I somehow got a good source of soul hearts, but how was I supposed to know how this would go? Need I remind you that blue fires are nerfed, so that's one less source of soul hearts for soul heart only builds. I know I can reduce my health to 0 now via donations, but it's pretty risky without Soul Hearts?
Sheol - I take 2 hits total throughout the floor and 2 in the boss fight, and ONE could've been avoided by flight, if I flew instantly into the corner covered by rocks. I suppose flight is more helpful in the Cathedral. Tear Height still a thing so I'm not sure if a single rock is enough to hide over. I end up getting Ipecac by rerolling a miniboss item (which feels awkward with Eye of the Occult, but is my only other dmg up, thanks devil deals) and flight saves me ONE key to access a money beggar. Flight good.
Dark Room with Curse of the Blind -
oh yeah
i'm surprised I forgot about that
i am dying of laughter
So somehow in the main post, I forgot this exists. You know what another advantage to Angel Rooms is? NOT getting effectively nulled by a 1/6 curse, unless you want to potentially throw a heart container away for no reason if it's an active or just bad, maybe even more if it's Dead Cat. I have 5 hearts now, 2 2 heart deals, 2 1 heart deals. I just take all that I can, I don't even care about winning.
2 heart deal - Abaddon - Leviathan. That's pretty alright, but it takes away most of my health for other devil deals.
Both 1 heart deals - Guppy's tail and hairball. Wow, I would've had Guppy for one floor! That was totally a bad play to NOT take Dead Cat, I missed out on one floor of OP, which wouldn't be that great anyway because my tear rate is slow and. I don't think you can use Dead Cat to buy 2 heart devil deals anymore, so idk if taking that would've been a good idea.
At this point, I skip the last deal because I can't buy it with just 1 soul heart. I end up dying in the next room because I don't even care at this point.
So that was a pretty mediocre run. In the end, the only deal that actually mattered was Eye of the Occult as my (I think only? I don't remember if there was a second one) early dmg up, and even, I think the bombs I could spare did more work with bosses. The most I can say is that it extended a pretty bad run, and maybe would've saved it had I actually cared. And as we've seen, Flight is FAR from necessary - it would've saved me 1 hit and a key.
I guess I could've played it slow, but if I do that, then Angel Rooms are at an even bigger edge because you have time to play red heart related stuff, including the oh-so exploitable Sacrifice Rooms, which mean you'll likely get more than just the 2-3 average Devil/Angel items per run. Going fast is the the main perk of Devil Deals.
I don't even know what to say anymore, besides the fact that the Devil pool has a lot of garbage in it and I don't even want to try it anymore.
Crown of Destiny is pretty good imo, a double damage item that doesn't suffer from Dimnishing returns. At no DMG ups it's maybe worth a bit less than 2 dmg up devil deals, but as you go on, it's a pretty big buff. Keeping the buff sounds hard, but I rarely had problems with it. Spear of Destiny is a good damage source with some form of invincibility to back it up, or just small mob clearing with bad tear rate. I believe it's twice your damage per tick?