Why would you want to complete the "Have a heart" challenge? (Objective downgrade?)

[Neonetik]

I'm in the process of completing challenges for the game (never played too much Isaac, but recently got back into it and am waiting for the last DLC), and I've sort of been following a guide as to what challenges to do first, and which to do last, and there's something I don't get.

I figured that completing challenges should give you a reward. Some better than others, but always a reward. However, it seems like the "Have a heart" challenge outright penalises all future runs of yours by you completing it.

When you complete the challenge, you unlock 2 extra pills that can drop. One of which that makes you defecate constantly for a moment, which may potentially offer a few cents if lucky, but the other pill, the ??? pill, applies the curse of the maze to the entirety of the current floor, which can be extremely annoying (especially when combined with other curses from what I've heard), and the pill has the same name as unidentified pills, making it very easy to pick up a pill, believing it to be unidentified, using it, only get get curse of the lost applied again.

Honestly, it seems as though you would be far better off completely ignoring this challenge, and not having these frankly meh/infuriating pills diluting your pill pool. Seems kinda like a punishment, rather than a reward. Am I wrong on this, or is this something that should really be changed?

Cheers.

[The Renderer]

You have to complete all challenges to "complete" the game.
There are other challenges with rewards that can be seen as "bad". Don't do them until later if you really want to avoid the unlocks.

[Gregor]

Not everything in this game is a bonus. It actually can make the game difficulter as you point out.

I like the sound of the ??? when using it.

Not sure this would have prevented my 100% achievements and since it's on the list, it's something people consider doing and some achieve.

It can be a good feeling to be able to overcome challenges and obstacles.

[Neonetik]

Maybe, but allowing an incredibly annoying pill into the rotation that can RNG teleport you into a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ curse room and end your run doesn't seem like an idea that would provide many good feelings. Kinda wish rewards for certain challenges could be disabled.

Cheers for the info though. Good to know I wasn't missing anything.

[All talk and no fight]

Originally posted by Neonetik:

Maybe, but allowing an incredibly annoying pill into the rotation that can RNG teleport you into a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ curse room and end your run doesn't seem like an idea that would provide many good feelings. Kinda wish rewards for certain challenges could be disabled.

Cheers for the info though. Good to know I wasn't missing anything.

Welcome to Isaac, where the majority of character unlocks are garbage and bloat the item pool and take away your chances of getting good items!

[Nazemec]

Originally posted by All talk and no fight:

Originally posted by Neonetik:

Maybe, but allowing an incredibly annoying pill into the rotation that can RNG teleport you into a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ curse room and end your run doesn't seem like an idea that would provide many good feelings. Kinda wish rewards for certain challenges could be disabled.

Cheers for the info though. Good to know I wasn't missing anything.

Welcome to Isaac, where the majority of character unlocks are garbage and bloat the item pool and take away your chances of getting good items!

Thing is, over time you're supposed to learn how to play without relying on powerful items so overall it shouldn't be that much of a problem.
Games getting harder (one way or another) the further you are is quite common, when you think about it.

[Neonetik]

Originally posted by Nazemec:

Originally posted by All talk and no fight:

Welcome to Isaac, where the majority of character unlocks are garbage and bloat the item pool and take away your chances of getting good items!

Thing is, over time you're supposed to learn how to play without relying on powerful items so overall it shouldn't be that much of a problem.
Games getting harder (one way or another) the further you are is quite common, when you think about it. :dip:

You could, however, also argue that the main method of getting good at Isaac is by learning what all the items do, how they interact with one another, and then picking, choosing, and rerolling them in order to give yourself the best chance of success. That's how runs work. People do not make choices that actively give themselves a worse chance of success. They make choices that give them the best chance of success. Having a wide variety of choices is fun, especially when not all of them work well with one another, and add an element of decision making and planning, but when the only possible choices being added are objectively negative, then they aren't worth taking. As such, with the knowledge that completing that challenge would actively cause my runs to be worse overall (and again, in a way that is far more annoying than it is fun), then I should make the educated decision to NOT complete the challenge, much like you wouldn't choose to pick up something like the Yum Heart whilst playing as ???.

Fact of the matter is, the vast majority of items in Isaac are more useful to have over not having them, or at the very least offer some niche use that can occasionally justify picking them up depending on circumstance. Meanwhile, completing this challenge doesn't reward like like, again, 95% of the challenges do. The "good" pill is almost completely worthless, and the "bad" pill can result in completely screwing you over. It's not a good design choice to make the "reward" of completing a challenge into something that can't really even be seen as a "niche" use, and is far more of a "your run is about to get far more annoying" use, that is to say, the opposite of anything positive.

[Nazemec]

The poop one has a niche use. Poops can act like rocks when bombing them next to a single-tile gap.

About the cursed pill, the only "screw you" I see would be if you're trying to do timed goals (Boss Rush or Hush), but as you mentioned you can make educated guesses and not rely on pills at all during those specific runs. Other than that, it's barely more than an annoyance (which is the point of a bad pill).

But yeah, you're right, you can also make the choice to never do this challenge at all and keep it to the end game. You'll have to do it anyway to get all unlocks. Up to you.

[Neonetik]

Originally posted by Nazemec:

The poop one has a niche use. Poops can act like rocks when bombing them next to a single-tile gap.

About the cursed pill, the only "screw you" I see would be if you're trying to do timed goals (Boss Rush or Hush), but as you mentioned you can make educated guesses and not rely on pills at all during those specific runs. Other than that, it's barely more than an annoyance (which is the point of a bad pill).

But yeah, you're right, you can also make the choice to never do this challenge at all and keep it to the end game. You'll have to do it anyway to get all unlocks. Up to you.

I know it has a (very small) niche, but my point is that the benefit it offers is FAR outweighed by the downsides of the ??? pill. As for the "Screw you"... dude, it gives you curse of the maze. You can literally be randomly teleported into a curse room and be FORCED to take damage to leave, which can absolutely end your run if you are low on HP and basically need to start taking risks like taking pills in order to have a chance of survival. Even the bad trip pill doesn't allow this to happen, becoming full health if taking it would kill you. This does not apply to the ??? pill. It can easily teleport you to rooms you are trying to avoid, and lead to death. Heck, even if you are TRYING to enter a curse room, you can try to go in, take damage, be teleported away, and now need to enter the curse room again and take more damage if you still wanna see what's in there. "Barely more than an annoyance" indeed.

And again, not just that, but it shares the same name as other identified pills, being ??? for both of them, messing with muscle memory and making it fairly easy to cause the curse of the maze to occur multiple times per run, all because you thought you were taking an unidentified pill, but it was really just that curse of the maze ??? pill.

And what do you get in exchange for this? Another (literally) ♥♥♥♥♥♥ pill that dilutes your pill pool, making it less likely to get pills that'll actually made a positive and meaningful difference to your run, like a tears up or whatever.

[Gregor]

I've never noticed anything negative at the ???(except it not beeing a statsup or a I'm drowsy or whatever positive pill is desired.). It's more like a jokepill to me or has been might be that I've played to well to notice and that my RNG is that favorable, that I never got the curse of the maze effect or never noticed because of reasons....

[Nazemec]

Originally posted by Neonetik:

You can literally be randomly teleported into a curse room and be FORCED to take damage to leave, which can absolutely end your run if you are low on HP and basically need to start taking risks like taking pills in order to have a chance of survival.

If you're that low on HP your run is pretty much over anyway.

Originally posted by Neonetik:

Heck, even if you are TRYING to enter a curse room, you can try to go in, take damage, be teleported away, and now need to enter the curse room again and take more damage if you still wanna see what's in there. "Barely more than an annoyance" indeed.

When you know the curse is active (either naturally or form the pill), if you're willingly taking this risk you must be ready to face the consequences. You choose to give the game a perfect opportunity to screw you over, don't act surprised when it does.

Originally posted by Neonetik:

And again, not just that, but it shares the same name as other identified pills, being ??? for both of them, messing with muscle memory and making it fairly easy to cause the curse of the maze to occur multiple times per run, all because you thought you were taking an unidentified pill, but it was really just that curse of the maze ??? pill.

That's why each pill effect has a specific color combination for each run. Don't use only your muscle memory, look at them too. Once you've noticed this pill is in the pool, pay attention to what you do to identify its colors. You won't take it more than twice during said runs if you're careful.
It's like complaining some rooms are unfair because there are spikes 3 tiles from the door and you run on them everytime. Don't stay in automatic mode, use your eyes and adapt.


Anyway, whatever is said here, it'll always end up the same way: Don't like the unlock? Then don't unlock it and keep it for the end game.
To come back to your original question:

Originally posted by Neonetik:

Am I wrong on this, or is this something that should really be changed?

You're not really wrong, but I don't see why it should change. As I wrote earlier, making the game harder once you've proven you can deal with what it throws at you isn't a problem to me.

[Neonetik]

Originally posted by Nazemec:

Originally posted by Neonetik:

You can literally be randomly teleported into a curse room and be FORCED to take damage to leave, which can absolutely end your run if you are low on HP and basically need to start taking risks like taking pills in order to have a chance of survival.

If you're that low on HP your run is pretty much over anyway.

Originally posted by Neonetik:

Heck, even if you are TRYING to enter a curse room, you can try to go in, take damage, be teleported away, and now need to enter the curse room again and take more damage if you still wanna see what's in there. "Barely more than an annoyance" indeed.

When you know the curse is active (either naturally or form the pill), if you're willingly taking this risk you must be ready to face the consequences. You choose to give the game a perfect opportunity to screw you over, don't act surprised when it does.

Originally posted by Neonetik:

And again, not just that, but it shares the same name as other identified pills, being ??? for both of them, messing with muscle memory and making it fairly easy to cause the curse of the maze to occur multiple times per run, all because you thought you were taking an unidentified pill, but it was really just that curse of the maze ??? pill.

That's why each pill effect has a specific color combination for each run. Don't use only your muscle memory, look at them too. Once you've noticed this pill is in the pool, pay attention to what you do to identify its colors. You won't take it more than twice during said runs if you're careful.
It's like complaining some rooms are unfair because there are spikes 3 tiles from the door and you run on them everytime. Don't stay in automatic mode, use your eyes and adapt.


Anyway, whatever is said here, it'll always end up the same way: Don't like the unlock? Then don't unlock it and keep it for the end game.
To come back to your original question:

Originally posted by Neonetik:

Am I wrong on this, or is this something that should really be changed?

You're not really wrong, but I don't see why it should change. As I wrote earlier, making the game harder once you've proven you can deal with what it throws at you isn't a problem to me.

Can't say I agree that your run is necessarily over at that health mark. I only have like 35 hours in isaac rebirth, but even then, I can recall numerous times when I came back from near death like that just by getting getting a lucky pill/card drop. Playing skillfully allowed me to survive for longer and manipulate the RNG in that way to increase my chances of getting something that let me survive. Again, I believe the very reason the bad trip pill becomes full health is because of this sort of reasoning, same with HP down becoming HP up when getting to one heart.

As for the "willingly taking a risk" with the curse room, you're not wrong, but the main reason I brought that up wasn't to say that a player shouldn't be expected to use their brain when playing, it was to show that claiming the pill is "barely more than an annoyance" is really doing it injustice. It can really screw you over in situations where you would have otherwise been able to benefit quite well from something, and making risks worth taking into risks no longer with taking, totally changing your game-play in a negative way.

As for the color thing, I don't disagree, (I never said it was totally unavoidable), but again, just highlighting that it's an annoying thing to need to look out for, unlike any other pill in the game, since with this, that very specific thing now matters quite a lot if you don't want to inflict that negative effect on yourself by accident. Again, just adding onto the downsides it brings.

As for making the game harder, I don't see this as a bad thing. What I DO see as a bad thing is having the reward for beating a challenge be a bad thing. Isaac does difficulty well in some ways by sort of letting you choose how far you want to go with what boss you want to end up at, depending on item and trinket choice and stuff, but this just makes everything worse, and making it something I actively want to avoid trying to complete, which I don't believe was the intended design for the challenges.

[FrozenStar]

Originally posted by All talk and no fight:

Welcome to Isaac, where the majority of character unlocks are garbage and bloat the item pool and take away your chances of getting good items!

hahaha, the most pathetic comment about Isaac I've ever seen