What exactly is the appeal of this RNG luck based game for you?

[Neonetik]

Note: I am not here to come and ♥♥♥♥-talk on people for liking this game. I am trying to understand your perspectives here, and share my own, and hopefully learn something.

I don't really understand the appeal of BoI, or similar games like it. It's been a few years since I played, but I put a decent amount of time into both the original, and rebirth (though for this post I'm going to refer only to rebirth), and from everything I experienced and everything I can remember, the entire game was so heavily dependant on RNG and luck, that it hardly matter how good you actually were at the game, and that it was primarily the quality of the items you got that determined whether or not you would win or lose the run, which I just cannot understand as appealing game design. What is the point of trying on any run if you know that you may have no chance of succeeding anyway if you get unlucky with drops (several active items in a row, no damage boosters, ect). I mean, I guess you can reliably get to mom or whatever with base stats if you were good enough (if that is the first boss, it's been a few years, my memory is hazy), but I think everyone knows that's not really a major goal at all what with everything that comes after.

I recall having similar experiences with FTL, where it seemed like my ability to win laid on the chance that the run in question would see fit to allow me to purchase the tools and give me the scrap I needed early on to actually keep myself alive, which wasn't always guaranteed.
I also recall lots of people arguing in that past that "If you use the D6 cube (or whatever it was) then it becomes much less of a problem!", but that forces you to use a single character and have a very specific repetitive playstyle in a game where the main selling point is unique runs every time. Besides that, the D6 is just another aspect of luck that doesn't necessarily work out every time.

I also remember hating how the game touted having all these unlockable characters, but in the end, far and above, Issac was the best choice, due to the D6, with any other choice meaning you were gimping yourself. I also have bad memories of just, again, being unlucky with items drops, getting no speed or damage at all and getting a speed down pill or something, and very early on, needing to face a horseman or something that would just run up and damage me with no way of stopping him, ending my run right there. It is my belief that in 99% of the time, a person should be able to avoid getting hurt through their skill, not be locked into a "you die now" position whilst still in full control of their character.

If I am wrong in these beliefs about the game, I'd love to be corrected, but more so, I just want to know exactly how all of you can find this sort of game design to be appealing, where victory is so drastically influenced by factors outside of your control, and where skill takes a backseat to luck. I love to have my skill challenged by stuff like Ninja Gaiden Black, but this game seems like a coin flip more than anything else, except it takes far longer, and for much of the time makes you struggle fruitlessly without being able to do much about it.

So yeah, what's the appeal of this game for you?

Thank you.

[Watson690]

Originally posted by Neonetik:

So yeah, what's the appeal of this game for you?

It's fun to run around the basement shooting tears at enemies. So long as I'm having fun I don't care about the RNG.

[Phyore]

tbh I don't even know exacly why I still play this game. I almost hate it, after putting a stupid amount of time to unlock the achievements and coming kinda close to the 100% I got my save wiped for no reason and never managed to get it back. I didn't want to edit the saves so I started all over again and it got really frustrating and yet when you start making item combos that let you destroy everything and win the run almost effortlessly is so oddly satisfying that I just can't uninstall it.

[Jazz Ad]

Randomly generated so there alays are new place to see.
Also to me the main appeal is the way items are dealt. It's not so much about luck as doing with what you're given.
Many games turn into immense sessions of looting and with enough patience you can end with the most impressive builds.
None of that with Isaac. Options are limited and you have to build character and technique with the little you have, find ways to exploit the possibilities of your possessions.

[K1]

personally i love the replayability.
so many possible item combos & multiple interesting characters.

my personal favorites are keeper & apollyon.
keeper 'cause i love the "money = life" aspect & the ability to check all of the shops right off the bat. maybe even buy something depending on the wooden nickle luck.

apollyon 'cause of the void. just love creating this over powered spacebar item that spawns health, chops off my head, spawns trinkets & melts all of my current trinkets.
the stat boosts are kinda ok as long as they all dont land in the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ shot speed. -.-'

also back in my civil service days id play this during the 9 hour train rides, 'cause its so easy to sink time into the game.
ive even 100% completed both pc & ds versions.

[SpaghettiiJuice]

i like to overcome the odds, that's about it. that's why i love the rng, cause it makes it replayable and a challenge each time.
plus it's not entirely luck based.

[xagon2014]

The gameplay is fun and the combinations and different synergies of items that lead to very different play styles are very well designed imo. Not to mention the different characters, countless unlocks, etc. Also I have never played a game where getting all the achievements motivated me so much to keep playing.

The random factor increases long term motivation and replayability because every run is different. It is not about what the "best" choice is but about the challenge and getting every achievement. Losing an individual run doesn't really matter. Because of the random factor it is fun to try again and again.

But these are not questions of being correct or incorrect. It is all just a matter of how you feel playing the game. Either it is fun for you or it isn't and no amount of explaning or discussing will change anything about that.

[Cloud]

I can only speak for myself, but I really enjoy the lore, the gameplay mechanics, and since I'm a gambler I love the RNG.

[The Renderer]

It's not luck based. You can win any run. The difficulty may vary due to RNG but, again, you can win any run.

Sounds like these games just aren't for you. Which is fine, play something else, more than enough stuff out there.

[Judgmental Amaterasu]

Originally posted by Neonetik:

Note: I am not here to come and ♥♥♥♥-talk on people for liking this game. I am trying to understand your perspectives here, and share my own, and hopefully learn something.

I don't really understand the appeal of BoI, or similar games like it. It's been a few years since I played, but I put a decent amount of time into both the original, and rebirth (though for this post I'm going to refer only to rebirth), and from everything I experienced and everything I can remember, the entire game was so heavily dependant on RNG and luck, that it hardly matter how good you actually were at the game, and that it was primarily the quality of the items you got that determined whether or not you would win or lose the run, which I just cannot understand as appealing game design. What is the point of trying on any run if you know that you may have no chance of succeeding anyway if you get unlucky with drops (several active items in a row, no damage boosters, ect). I mean, I guess you can reliably get to mom or whatever with base stats if you were good enough (if that is the first boss, it's been a few years, my memory is hazy), but I think everyone knows that's not really a major goal at all what with everything that comes after.

I recall having similar experiences with FTL, where it seemed like my ability to win laid on the chance that the run in question would see fit to allow me to purchase the tools and give me the scrap I needed early on to actually keep myself alive, which wasn't always guaranteed.
I also recall lots of people arguing in that past that "If you use the D6 cube (or whatever it was) then it becomes much less of a problem!", but that forces you to use a single character and have a very specific repetitive playstyle in a game where the main selling point is unique runs every time. Besides that, the D6 is just another aspect of luck that doesn't necessarily work out every time.

I also remember hating how the game touted having all these unlockable characters, but in the end, far and above, Issac was the best choice, due to the D6, with any other choice meaning you were gimping yourself. I also have bad memories of just, again, being unlucky with items drops, getting no speed or damage at all and getting a speed down pill or something, and very early on, needing to face a horseman or something that would just run up and damage me with no way of stopping him, ending my run right there. It is my belief that in 99% of the time, a person should be able to avoid getting hurt through their skill, not be locked into a "you die now" position whilst still in full control of their character.

If I am wrong in these beliefs about the game, I'd love to be corrected, but more so, I just want to know exactly how all of you can find this sort of game design to be appealing, where victory is so drastically influenced by factors outside of your control, and where skill takes a backseat to luck. I love to have my skill challenged by stuff like Ninja Gaiden Black, but this game seems like a coin flip more than anything else, except it takes far longer, and for much of the time makes you struggle fruitlessly without being able to do much about it.

So yeah, what's the appeal of this game for you?

Thank you.

It's a relatively simple game play loop that for the price provides a lot of replay value.

[Colonel Vance]

I liked to play with a friend. Now we're only left with the Lost, which means there's no fun left in the game AT ALL. Just today I was doing the boss rush after a very good playthrough and got instakilled by an enemy that spawned precisely on top of me. I had guppy's collar, but in 300 hours of gameplay or so, it only worked once, soòoo... another run wasted.

Honestly, I don't like this game anymore. I hate how cheaply it kills or tricks you (for example: infinite keys? Holy chests only work once and give nothing. 99 coins? Beggar immediately kills himself with a bomb you can't move - and so on, and I hate that 9 out of 10 runs with the Lost I die because of enemies spawning on me unpredictably.

[theserpentmage]

Originally posted by Phyore:

tbh I don't even know exacly why I still play this game. I almost hate it, after putting a stupid amount of time to unlock the achievements and coming kinda close to the 100% I got my save wiped for no reason and never managed to get it back. I didn't want to edit the saves so I started all over again and it got really frustrating and yet when you start making item combos that let you destroy everything and win the run almost effortlessly is so oddly satisfying that I just can't uninstall it.

You can sync your game with your Steam achievements:

At the stats screen, pressing Alt + F2 will sync your unlocks with your steam achievements. Should you have steam achievements for secrets you haven't unlocked ingame, they will be unlocked by doing this.

[jester]

its cool because every run is different, and the game has a degree of skill and mastery to it as you get used to the systems and learn how the items work and synergize.

[Xepher]

Originally posted by FrozenStar:

tl;dr
git gud, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

[Omertoso]

I wish I could say how I got into The Binding of Isaac, but that was so many years ago that I don't remember anymore. Anyways, here's my attempt in explaining why I like games like this and also pick apart some complaints you have. Probably with a lot of rambling.

While roguelikes are often advertised as having limitless potential for replayability, there'll definitely be a point where people can say "I've seen all this game has to offer". At least the most popular roguelikes have a limited amount of handcrafted content in them, albeit copious amounts of it. When I play a roguelike for the first time, finding out about all the mechanics and secrets and developing strategies around them is what's the most important thing, not "winning the game" or whatever. In The Binding of Isaac's case it's finding out about items, rooms, enemies, bosses and whatever secrets surround these.

I don't know how other people play through roguelikes, but in my case once I feel I've done enough exploration and experimentation on my own, I start reading wikis for more information. I'm not actually that much for finding things out by myself, so I don't mind spoiling myself in this regard.

Eventually there'll be a point where you've seen most if not all unique content that the game has to offer. At that point it becomes experiencing all the different interactions and combinations all the randomized elements have to offer, and utilizing them to reach whatever goals the game has set in a most efficient and, most of the time, fun manner.

Now, you talk a lot about these kinds of games just being a coin flip rather than skill. When you've done all the groundwork mentioned above, namely the exploration and experimentation, these games definitely become more skill-oriented. Most of the runs you will play won't fall into either category of "god-like overpowered genocide machine" and "trash that wouldn't even sell at a clearance sale", they'll be somewhere in-between. That's when you apply all the knowledge and strategies you have for the game: How to get the most items you can, which in turn heightens the chance you get good items, and how to deal with all the different enemies and bosses you will encounter. In this manner, the chance of runs that are utter trash will lessen, and better runs will start to become more common.

My previous run is a good example: I had one damage boost and two tear boosts going for dps, one of which was the 360 degree controllable tears, then it was just speed and health and the Gish familiar. At some point I got the Blue Candle which ended up doing over half more than my current dps, but was rather unwieldy. This run continued on until Depths II or Womb I, where I got a Joker card to an angel room where I found Sacred Heart, which instantly turned the tides of the run. I got lucky to get such an item, yes, but it wouldn't have been possible if I couldn't make use of the 360 degree targeting and the Gish familiar's slowing effect. Or the fact that I spent time to gather money and then going through shops for the Blue Candle, and going through secret rooms, challenge rooms and cursed rooms for other stuff and bombing tinted rocks for health.

When luck is involved, knowing how to manipulate luck is the key. Yes, sometimes you get a run where you're just so overpowered you wish you had been playing as The Keeper to get those sweet completion marks, and sometimes you just get so thoroughly penetrated in all possible orifices that... well, in my case I'll just quit for the day or just start a new run, depending on how I'm feeling. Bad runs have never been that much of a big deal for me, anyway.

It's interesting to me how you, and many others, and me, and again many others, got to such different conclusions when trying roguelikes. When I first played FTL, the very first roguelike I played, I had the time of my life finding out about all the things that can happen in the game despite dying so many times; it feels strange to see someone experience the same things yet feel so negatively towards it.

[Juan]

There's a lot of ♥♥♥♥ I hate about isaac (IE: afterbirth+) but I think the variety in runs is what keeps me around. Also making the most of what the game has given you is very satisfying. I think most people are into the game's variety and how crazy some runs can get (mostly the latter it seems)