The Lost vs The Keeper (opinion)

[Dantox]

A couple of hours i post something about completing all the marks for Keeper and the Lost, and then people went crazy about who is the worse character or wich one is more or less fun.

This is just an opinion and i am doing this because of fun.

So, The Lost pros.

Permanent fly
Permanent spectral tears
Holy Mantle
D4 (A little useless if you lost your holy mantel as well)
Can do devil deals for free
Neutral stats
Works great with dead cat (And is a good synergie because he has a lot of % about devil rooms)

The lost cons.

1 true hit and GG
No way to regain any health at all
A true pain in the *ss if you are doing greedier mode.
1hp up items or heart generators are useless

The Keeper pros.

Permanent triple shot
Start with more damage
Ways to regain health in battle
Ways to gain more coins containers (Greed gullets, but is a little rare)
Great manage of the shops
Good manage of money in the whole run (Money = Power and just spam ur wooden penny)
Great control of the angels rooms
Some items can give him more sustain (ej. swallowed penny) (I think i spelled that bad, sorry)
Great in any Greed Mode
As long you progress on the keepers gets a little bit better (1 penny more, the store key, wooden penny, etc)

The Keepers cons

Cannot fly (Hi, Apollyon)
Tear rate really slow
Cannot do any devil deals without risking your life (Less you have 1h up waiting you in boss room)
-2 luck down at start
0.80 of speed (i think)
The invulnerability after getting hit is not enough time to get a coin in the room, so if you are in a bad spot is almost gg
Is not that great with the Dead cat unless you have a 1hp up inf that floor.
A pain in the *ss in any normal run

My opinion.

I think is meant to be that keeper is the hardest of all, i mean yes, if you have some items like Tech X and some tears up and a item of damage is pretty sure you actually win the run, but the fact that he starts really bad in stats coul really f*uck up your run, so if you have a unfair or hard room without any fly is almost gg. (Hi, 2 mushroom and 4 spiders, f*uck you)

The Lost has more ways to dodge everything, with the super mega buff of the holy mantel in Afterbirth and the free devil deals gives him some strong power.

Yeah, The keeper can have more life if you get the greed gullet, but that is a item actually some rare, i have seen just 2 times in the gold rooms so if you are luck enough a unfair room shouldnt kill you.

I think The Lost is more fun, and the keeper more challeging and more rewarding if you do things right.

And please for gods sake Lilith isnt that bad. he can have hearts, do devil deals just fine if you had enough soul hearths, and for boss rooms you can double your damage, (x3 or even more if you have the right items) In that terns makes ??? harder than Lilith.

[53bload53]

Lilith isn't bad at all, she's just... annoying to play as in normal runs. She's really fun in greed mode, though.

Now, imo the lost with holy mantle unlocked is hard as hell still but fun, since you have free devil deals, spectral tears and flight. On the other hand... the keeper... *sigh*. Let's just say no one plays as the keeper for fun.

[Plaguelight]

Originally posted by The Big Bad Wolf:

Lilith isn't bad at all, she's just... annoying to play as in normal runs. She's really fun in greed mode, though.

Now, imo the lost with holy mantle unlocked is hard as hell still but fun, since you have free devil deals, spectral tears and flight. On the other hand... the keeper... *sigh*. Let's just say no one plays as the keeper for fun.

I play as the Keeper for fun. Triple Shot is nicer than you'd think.

[Plazy]

I'd say Keeper is harder. I know technically he has more hits than the Lost but don't forget that the Lost can take Devil Deal items for free, which can be very powerful items. And you can unlock the Holy Mantle, which gives the Lost a permanent second hit. The current Lost also has spectral and flight so it can allow him to safely deal with certain enemies in the right room.

Meanwhile, the Keeper can not under any circumstances have any soul/black hearts which is terrible because his coin health acts like red hearts in which if he takes damage, his chances of getting a devil/angel deal are severely screwed. His damage and triple shot is nice but the fire rate severely limits his ability to deal with groups of enemies. And that .80 speed isn't doing him any favors. I know the gullet item which allows him more coins is a godsend but don't forget that this is one item out of a large chunk of all the items in the entire game. Your chances of getting it can be pretty damn slim and even smaller if you get Chaos.

Both of these characters have severe downsides but, in my opinion, the Keeper is much harder. Only two coin hearts for most runs unless you get the godsend that is Greed Gullet and if you get hit once, your devil/angel chances are down the toilet meanwhile the Lost has flight and spectral to make up for being very fragile and even the Holy Mantle which can also allow him to use curse rooms for free if you are careful while the Keeper, if not using any invincibility or teleports, is most likely dead if he even dares to enter a curse room.

[ned]

That's when you know its sad

when you have to specifically put "opinion" in your title, what has this world come to

[Plazy]

Originally posted by SnackerZ:

That's when you know its sad

when you have to specifically put "opinion" in your title, what has this world come to

Well some people may find a character harder than another. But yeah. I think putting opinion shouldn't be needed.

[LSDBunny]

I would generally say Lost is the better character to play with in most situations. But swallowed penny + restock is an easy gamebreak with Keeper and that combination isn't extremely hard to get.

[John Orbit]

Lost, hands down (assuming that all starting items are unlocked for both).

Defence:

Both can only take two hits in a room, but if Lost only gets hit once, the Mantle comes back. That's basically infinite health for Lost, at one hit per room. If you're a Keeper without a coin tho, you're done, and the Wodden Nickel will fail three times in a row just to spite you. Sure Keeper can get the Mantle too, but he can't start with it and it's a very rare item.
Keeper is also slow for no reason, making dodging harder. Lost can fly, often making dodging way too easy.
That's 2 points for Lost so far, and Keeper's got nothing.

Offence:

Keeper has triple shot and a high damage multiplier, but his tear-rate sucks so some powerful items (Brimstone, Polyphemus, Inner Eye, etc.) will make it suck worse. Lost however, has flight and spectral tears, so you can often find a safe place where he can deal damage without taking damage.
Keeper wins this point, but Lost gets another point for defence. Lost however, has another advantage here...

Power-Up Availability:

Setting aside the obvious Gnawed Leaf thing, the Keeper basically needs to have the Swallowed Penny to survive (cuz' Piggy Bank ain't a sure-thing), and if you don't have enough bombs to bomb the right pots, welp, might as well restart. AB+ gives him Greeds Gullet, but it's such an insanely rare item, it might as well not be in the game. I unlocked it a day or two after release and I've only ever seen it once... when I wasn't the Keeper.
And Devil Deals? Forget about it. Even if you manage to avoid losing your deal to damage, unless your boss or item room has a health-up, no devil deals for you. Also, you can't have any of the two-heart ones, unless you have Judas' Tongue... but you still really need that Swallowed Penny tho... Oh, and Curse Rooms are basically off-limits.
So, yeah. No Guppy for Keeper. Really, nothing good for Keeper, ever.

Lost, on the other hand, gets free Devil Deals; the best odds of Devil Deals too, as long as you survive. Devil Items are some of the most powerful items in the game and most of them give you damage. Even with Curse of the Blind, you might as well just take the Deals anyway, because Lost has no health to lose. And as long as you can dodge some spiders, you get all the Curse Rooms you want.
Lost also turns Dead Cat from an iffy item into the best thing ever, making being Guppy too easy. Also, Leviathin, because why not?
Given how many OP things the Lost can get, I'm giving him 2 points for items and another point for offence too.

Fun:

Lost is stupidly OP, excepting his health. That makes him challenging, but also way too much fun. Keeper, excepting his damage, is completely useless, and is just a chore to play. The only thing Keeper does well is Greed Mode, but it's still not fun. If I want to play Greed, I'll play Lilith.
In Afterbirth, once I got my completion marks, I was done with Keeper forever, but I kept playing Lost when I felt like an adrenaline rush. Once I finally beat Delirium with Keeper, I'll be overjoyed to never play him again. Lost, I'm aready done with, but I'll go back for more once I have a few more achievements out of the way.

Lost: 7, Keeper: 1. I rest my case.

[Dantox]

Originally posted by The Lazygineer:

Originally posted by SnackerZ:

That's when you know its sad

when you have to specifically put "opinion" in your title, what has this world come to

Well some people may find a character harder than another. But yeah. I think putting opinion shouldn't be needed.

I put it because i did not research to actually say who is harder, so i didnt want to someone actually do the research and call me something like liar or idk.

[Rio]

Keeper is only bad if your time locked because his strength is mo munnies pre womb. He even got a big buff now that shops have reroll machines. I ain't had a keeper run once where greed's gullet showed up early enough to make a difference. Sack of sacks also helps keeper as it can appear in shops and it can pay out cards like strength to let the keeper take more devil deals.

Lost is strong, And usually finds 9 lives since he enters all curse rooms free and gets all devil deals that open free.

Both characters benefit from the new tarrot cloth item a lot.

I'd rather play Keeper over blue baby any day.

[esco1979]

Originally posted by Sashie:

Keeper is only bad if your time locked because his strength is mo munnies pre womb. He even got a big buff now that shops have reroll machines. I ain't had a keeper run once where greed's gullet showed up early enough to make a difference. Sack of sacks also helps keeper as it can appear in shops and it can pay out cards like strength to let the keeper take more devil deals.

Lost is strong, And usually finds 9 lives since he enters all curse rooms free and gets all devil deals that open free.

Both characters benefit from the new tarrot cloth item a lot.

I'd rather play Keeper over blue baby any day.

I never understood why blue baby gets so much hate: he is guaranteed to never lose devil/angel deals because he has NO red health to give. And it's not like finding soul/black hearts is hard. Yes, the poop is trash. But his stats are fine otherwise.

Keeper is just harder for me too. Lost's flight + devil deals + 9 lives/1 up/Guppy's Collar working so perfect for him just makes life seem much simpler, coupled with spectral tears to attack while hiding.

Keeper's biggest flaw is that he loses devil deals on one hit due to not being able to protect his health. If not for that and his slow speed he would be a much better character. He really feels like he needs something more. I do enjoy playing him once in a while, though. Especially if I get Tears up items. And he can easily milk any sacrifice room he sees (those this can be slow and tedious)

Also, in greed mode: the keeper is GOD! Literally next to invincible.

[Rio]

Finding 3 to 9 soul hearts for every devil deal is hard. More so with a rubbish space bar item and no other benefit to speak of when starting out.

Start issac with guppy's paw instead of the D6, wham blue baby that gets 3 soul hearts to the hp up.

Besides if I never want to miss a devil deal, the superior lost.

[esco1979]

Well technically Lost is superior to just about ANYONE... IF you use the exit game/continue trick and find decent items. But I like being able to take a few hits while not losing angel/devil rooms. Probably because I was using blue baby quite a bit before the Lost got mantle put on him for this exact reason. And before they changed sacrifice rooms.

I will admit that now though because of the changes in-game he doesn't feel quite as good as he once was. But still nowhere near god awful like some people say.

[BOYCOTT]

the keeper is far superior to the lost, soon as you find a blood bank you have free luck upgrades plus devil deal ability about half of the time.

also it's incredible how good libra is as the keeper, you need stats afterwards but it's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ amazing when you finally have fire rate with the keeper.

[Phaper]

Originally posted by Too-DAMN-Much:

the keeper is far superior to the lost, soon as you find a blood bank you have free luck upgrades plus devil deal ability about half of the time.

also it's incredible how good libra is as the keeper, you need stats afterwards but it's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ amazing when you finally have fire rate with the keeper.

Why do you think Keeper > Lost?

[John Orbit]

Originally posted by Too-DAMN-Much:

...plus devil deal ability about half of the time...

Um... Lost has the best odds for Devil Deals of anyone. All you have to do is survive. And Lost gets all Devil Deals free. All of them! Keeper can't take anything for 2 hearts without Judas' Tongue or he dies instantly and you need a health-up on that floor to even get a one heart deal. For Devil Deals, Keeper is literally the worst and Lost is the best by far.