Why do some people say that Shovel Knight has bad level design?

[River's]

I can understand some criticism about game design choices (like enemies dealing too low damage, instadeaths being the only real threat and too many checkpoints) but level design is something different.
What do they mean by "bad level design"?

[Nicholas Steel]

I thought the level designs were pretty good to be honest, A bit dissapointed that there is no currency sink though. Once you buy everything... that's it, you can't spend any more money even if you wanted to.

They could have made it cost money (1,000, 1,500, 2,000) to fill up the Chalice's and you can get them filled for free from fishing spots in levels. (They could add a "Level Escape" option for completed levels to better facilitate this).

The random wanderers on the level select screen often only move one space away from where they started or don't move at all... making the whole moving about mechanic largely pointless for them.

The Level Select screen only has one situation where something is blocked by the 3 Order of No Quarter levels other then progression to the next area which was kinda lame.

I like the game but it feels like I paid $15 for 2 worlds in Super Mario Bros 3 (Admittedly that game originally cost $60+).

[mouzy]

I wouldn't call the level design bad, but it isn't anything amazing. It's just not very memorable most of the time.

[Kartoffelsuppe]

I actually did a google search to find your "some people":

I personally believe that Shovel Knight has way too many points where it is like a Medusa Head moment. I have yet to finish the game but I am already frustrated beyond believe with the amount of times I have been hit by an enemy and gravitated toward the nearest pit.

So far, I believe the part that has given me the most rage out of anything is a part in the Explodatorium where you have to jump on 3 platforms with periodically shoot flames upward on the part you are suppose to stand. If you get hit by the flame you are either sent flying back into the platform you just jumped off of or you are sent into the pits between each of the platforms.

With the way Shovel Knight controls one square platforming is extremely dangerous because he has a slow run speed but an incredibly fast jump speed leading to awkwardness when trying to do precision platforming.

So far, the first three levels of the game didnt get me much as much frustration (except for the lighting platforming in Spectre Knight's stage) but every level after that is a mosh pit of bad level design and frustrating enemies.

Shovel Knight is also full of stuff that I never want to play again.

I realize that some people will be angry at me and suggest I'm saying this game is "too hard." I remember how many critics were held up as a sign of the "pussification" of modern gamers for complaining about Duck Tales Remastered. My problem with this game is not that it's hard, though - it's the way in which the difficulty is commonly achieved. When it feels genuinely challenging, Shovel Knight can be an immensely satisfying experience. Finally nailing a boss that has been nothing but trouble, working out its varied moveset and exploiting its weakness, is an elating prospect. Getting through a devilishly laid out level full of traps and sneakily guarded enemies can be immensely rewarding. Unfortunately, the rest of the game relies on what some may commonly refer to as Medusa Heading for its sense of challenge.

Any Castlevania fan will remember the Medusa Heads and shudder with a deep seated trauma that spans decades. If you're unaware, the classic action platformer was notorious for player characters that would get knocked backwards a significant distance after taking a hit. In a game full of instant-death chasms, that was bad enough already, but then opponents like the Medusa Head would appear, flying across the screen in such perfect time as to coincide with some of the trickier jumps, hoping the player would leap into them inadvertently, take damage, and fall backwards helplessly into a gaping hole.

Shovel Knight is a game that says "Hey, Medusa Heads were fun, let's do that lots and lots and lots!"

This is not to say Yacht Club Games made a bad or unenjoyable title. It's just awe-inspiringly frustrating, to the point where there are some levels I simply never want to play again as long as I live. Like a true-blooded Belmont, the titular Shovel Knight's reaction to pain is to leap backwards, and do so in a world crammed with death drops and fatal spikes, all eager to collaborate with the ambushing opponents. Hell, even hitting an enemy shoves the Knight back a little ways, increasing the opportunity for gravity-flavored failure. They definitely nailed that sense of utter relief in reaching a checkpoint, but that relief often comes tinged with a thought of, "Thank God I don't have to go through THAT again," which is not exactly the right kind of attitude to evoke.

[River's]

@lollibus: I have already read those opinions on the internet, but I totally disagree with them and I don't think that you can call a level badly designed because of instadeath pits. That's why I am looking for other opinions and other reasons. I really can't say that this game is frustrating.

Originally posted by TO-SaSgamerzap:

I wouldn't call the level design bad, but it isn't anything amazing. It's just not very memorable most of the time.

I agree, and I wouldn't call it bad design, just lazy or unoriginal in some parts, but overall very enjoyable (though mostly because of art and music).

[Kartoffelsuppe]

I can't really judge that because I'm not that much into platform games, I enjoyed Shovel Knight overall & it reminded me a little bit of Rayman & how this was my first platformer.

I had a hard time as a kid & it was mostly frustrating at times because I sucked at platforming.

After finally beating Rayman, I got a lot better at platform games but when you first play one, there is some kind of barrier at first, so I can't really say if you could even blame the game for that.

I guess when you suck at platformers, the game is gonna be frustrating no matter what:

So far, I believe the part that has given me the most rage out of anything is a part in the Explodatorium where you have to jump on 3 platforms with periodically shoot flames upward on the part you are suppose to stand. If you get hit by the flame you are either sent flying back into the platform you just jumped off of or you are sent into the pits between each of the platforms.

I guess he/she means this part (3:20):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNX31swuRTI

I died a few times on that part but I guess it was my fault, GG did it with the first try, people love to blame games all the time for their failure...

[Nicholas Steel]

So far, I believe the part that has given me the most rage out of anything is a part in the Explodatorium where you have to jump on 3 platforms with periodically shoot flames upward on the part you are suppose to stand. If you get hit by the flame you are either sent flying back into the platform you just jumped off of or you are sent into the pits between each of the platforms.

Just use the item that makes you temporarily invincible... barely costs any mana to use... The game gives you items to remedy the danger of many dangerous situations, ignoring the items does you no favours.

[River's]

Yea, that part with the three flames is the typical passage in which people should have timing but instead they blame the game.
In my opinion there are three kinds of games that you can partially blame for you faults: games based on randomly generated events/levels/encounters, online games with lag and games with unprecise movements.

Anyway, Rayman 1 is soooooo hard!

[Valfossa]

Originally posted by River's:

Yea, that part with the three flames is the typical passage in which people should have timing but instead they blame the game.
In my opinion there are three kinds of games that you can partially blame for you faults: games based on randomly generated events/levels/encounters, online games with lag and games with unprecise movements.

Anyway, Rayman 1 is soooooo hard!

I think it's a really well made game, Although the slightly trollish placements of some of the music sheets, Are a bit annoying. Anyway, Rayman 1 is hard, I'm playing it on my vita, I have forgot how hard that game was, And recommend it to anyone to try it if you don't think shovel knight is hard enough.

[diegzumillo]

I also don't think the level design is bad at all. The difficulty curve is unbalanced, which can be characterized by some as poor level design. I haven't finished this game yet but look how crazy the situation is: I played all the way until the clockwork towers dying 3 times only. All on bosses. Then I died 20 times and counting in this damned level. I switched to the windy level (forgot the name, sorry) and the situation didn't improve.

So yeah, I agree the difficulty ramp is quite frustrating to me. Mind you, before this point in the game it wasn't easy! I died very few times but I was always on the edge of my seat.

[Nicholas Steel]

I'm kind of surprised that there is no cool down period after a boss takes damage, so pogo-stick'ing on them when they travel upwards deals massive damage very quickly and fights almost exclusively revolve around finding ways to bounce on them in environments with a low ceiling.

Even Megaman X introduced invulnerability periods to bosses to prevent this kind of gameplay (Rapid attacking).

[Sigilbreaker]

That tactic won't work for polar knight at all; it's very hard for tinker knight because he keeps pushing you off, spectre knight teleports...

I actually liked the no invulnerability periods, cause it means that the game doesn't cheat and give the bosses a chance to breathe. They're always vulnerable, but always keep you on your seat. It actually feels like you're fighting someone. When either of you makes a mistake, you pay for it.

[Bungison]

The most frustrating part for me was the part right after the second checkpoint in Tower of Fate: Ascent when you have to ride this rainbow-barfing thing and there is an archer that drops down on you and pretty much always knocks you down into the pit. And right after that there are those propeller guys who push you into the abyss. After my ~20th attempt I just stopped giving a duck and used the Horn all the way through this hellish room.
For me Shovel Knight is like "Dark Souls of platformers". If you die, it's your fault. You try again, you die over and over, you get better, you nail the sнit. I like that kind of stuff. Even if it makes me want to punch through universe out of frustration.
*sorry for poor englando*

[Kartoffelsuppe]

Originally posted by Big Bungison:

The most frustrating part for me was the part right after the second checkpoint in Tower of Fate: Ascent when you have to ride this rainbow-barfing thing and there is an archer that drops down on you and pretty much always knocks you down into the pit. And right after that there are those propeller guys who push you into the abyss. After my ~20th attempt I just stopped giving a duck and used the Horn all the way through this hellish room.
For me Shovel Knight is like "Dark Souls of platformers". If you die, it's your fault. You try again, you die over and over, you get better, you nail the sнit. I like that kind of stuff. Even if it makes me want to punch through universe out of frustration.
*sorry for poor englando*

This game is pretty forgiving on the difficulty, I don't get why some people claim it is to hard or not well designed. There is room for improvement & a hard game would be Spelunky.

[diegzumillo]

I take it back when I said the difficulty ramped drastically. I made the very common mistake of forgetting to use my specials! The game is designed with that in mind, not using invencibility, fireballs etc will definitely make the game much harder.

[NeoRizer]

Some levels are just really fun, others are boring and others are just plain obnoxious... so that's probably why people are claiming "bad level design" ....

It's mostly just the pacing of the game that sucks... Like the Graveyard Level and the Airship level are both really annoying because the game forces you to wait and time jumps (due to darkness and air flow, respectfully). The crashed ship is also pretty obnoxious, spikes and ladders and that stupid floating rainbow platform thing that makes zero sense.

Also some levels are just drab... like the Clocktower and Golden Castle levels... just nothing overly special going on there...

Then there's levels that are completely bi-polar and messy like the Chemistry Lab, just too many ideas executed poorly.

The only really good themed levels were the submarine and the volcano... volcano more so.

Also the ghost house thing in the center of the map is the worst part of the game, I always skip over it on subsequent playthroughs.