Advice for a beginner

[Grandmaster_Sherm]

I don't have any dlc. Wanted to get into this game for years. But I keep getting right out of the station and hate my build. Seen some build ideas, and a couple youtube videos. I really want to use a knife, a pistol, and throw grenades and stuff. I want to be able to experience as much of the game on my first play through as I can so I can make a plan for my next playthrough when I buy the dlc.

I want to use the oddity system so I intend to engage in some stealth, but I see on the internet people say the game is 90% combat, so I don't want to screw myself by just making a sneaky suave character.

I'm curious as to what I should do for combat and what to do for social attributes and not miss a lot of the cool stuff a first time player wouldn't want to miss. I feel like if I don't have a gun I'm going to run into problems, but if I can't perform stealthy knife takedowns I'm going to feel like I missed out. So, what should I compromise on for a viable build?

Any advice is appreciated.

[♂Warrior of Gachi♂]

You don't really use Stealth to avoid combat, but rather initiate combat on your terms and win initiative. There aren't that many persuasion\intimidation checks either, so there will still be a lot of combat.

Look up some kind of Dex versatility build, take knives and pistols and get a lot of stealth. Get that persuasion\intimidation if you want it. It's a perfectly viable build, my friend is playing basically this but without persuasion and he's having a blast on Hard.

You can't do "takedowns" as in some other games, though. If you want to kill enemies without alerting others, you can, but it's more about killing an isolated group of enemies before they make noise and without making noise yourself and you can do that with knives and with silenced pistols, as well as some other weapons.

[Grandmaster_Sherm]

Originally posted by ♂PUDGUS♂:

You don't really use Stealth to avoid combat, but rather initiate combat on your terms and win initiative. There aren't that many persuasion\intimidation checks either, so there will still be a lot of combat.

Look up some kind of Dex versatility build, take knives and pistols and get a lot of stealth. Get that persuasion\intimidation if you want it. It's a perfectly viable build, my friend is playing basically this but without persuasion and he's having a blast on Hard.

You can't do "takedowns" as in some other games, though. If you want to kill enemies without alerting others, you can, but it's more about killing an isolated group of enemies before they make noise and without making noise yourself and you can do that with knives and with silenced pistols, as well as some other weapons.

Thanks for the advice

[The Great Cornholio]

https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=aq48u9hdmbf2feoq61qlt2tab8&board=12.0

find a build that worked for someone on Hard or Dominating and go with that on Normal

[fruit flavored ENERGY DRINK]

Originally posted by The Great Cornholio:

https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=aq48u9hdmbf2feoq61qlt2tab8&board=12.0

find a build that worked for someone on Hard or Dominating and go with that on Normal

that'll just end up with the game becoming way too easy and boring. you can start on hard on your first playthrough easily as long as you have an actual build. normal is intended for playing the game blind with no prior knowledge of the mechanics or builds

[Pancakus ante Omnia]

Get the expedition if you can. Dude makes your life much easier. Dude is a cool dude, he will help you a lot. Also cool jet skis, more feats cuz higher lvl cap and a very good support psi school.

I assume you are on easy/normal difficulty. I dont have experience with hard but so far medium has been nice for me.

if oddity xp and wishing to find hidden things having lockpicking/hacking and good perception or snooping is a must i feel. High perception also lets you see mines with zero skill in traps, just dont step on them or disarm with a grenade.

Stealth is nice but not necessary. You mainly use it to set up and scout a battlefield in your favor before engaging. Having like 50 stealth for ambush makes a huge difference though, but it takes some effort with playing with light-dark mechanics.
Going full stealth will require maxing out dodge evasion since you cant have high stealth and good armor. Althou i still get positive eff stealth with black overcoat 40 armor penalty.
And you can just ignore stealth (and damage) if you got heavy armor.

>a knife and a pistol.
If you focus on one of those and build around that you'll be fine, if you go both then you'll spread yourself thin in feats/atribs and whatnot. Without feats weapons are kinda meh and uninspiring. Also those two dont complement each other in gear/armor and somewhat in range. Why knife if pistols are good in melee range and have better pen? Why pistol if without skill investment you wont hit anything thats not in knife range anyway? Althou versatility gun-fu is a thing for blind gunslingers and it works but they dont use knifes to my knowledge.
afaik if you spec into one thing you'll be good no matter what weapon, a couple feats for a secondary weapon wont hurt if it complements the main one, grenades with 75-150 effective throwing land where you need them (nades damage doesnt scale with skill) and dont need feats to have utility if its not the primary source of damage.

Persuasion>intimidation imho, around 100 persuasion is enough for almost all checks (120 for all? dont remember) and this makes your life much easier and its important for quests among other things.

The most important thing in my opinion is not ignoring crafting. The stuff you can build is vastly superior to things in stores and can keep you ahead of the curve. And with good mercantile its a money printer. With disassemble you get a whole national bank worth of money printers, there's more trouble selling things than buying/crafting them.
High intelligence saves a lot of skillpoints since all crafting skills depend on it and high quality gear can be mind bogglingly good. So to craft in all categories dont drop it too low.

With my current (and my first and only) self-made energy weapon 10 dex 10 per 12 int I get to see and craft all the things, throw all the grenades, persuade all the people, play around with psi and overkill my targets by 1.5k damage and I still can mess around with light firearms if need be. My only problems are emp and sledgehammers to the face to some degree.

To not feel butthurt about ruined builds check the wiki for skill/feat/psi descriptions, ap reduction for light weapons from dex and the char calculator. Just decide on a single type of weapon to use (and other categories that synergise from skills/attribs) and build around that.

[fruit flavored ENERGY DRINK]

Originally posted by Pancakus ante Omnia:

if oddity xp and wishing to find hidden things having lockpicking/hacking and good perception or snooping is a must i feel. High perception also lets you see mines with zero skill in traps, just dont step on them or disarm with a grenade.

stop giving terrible advice. snooping is a complete waste of a feat and taking perception just for the sake of detection is equally as bad. i play exclusively on oddity and you definitely don't need to make a bad build just to get a couple more points of XP

Originally posted by Pancakus ante Omnia:

Going full stealth will require maxing out dodge evasion since you cant have high stealth and good armor. Althou i still get positive eff stealth with black overcoat 40 armor penalty.
And you can just ignore stealth (and damage) if you got heavy armor.

stealth and dodge/evasion have nothing to do with each other. you can take stealth on every single build and use it effectively. around 100 effective stealth is enough to do just about anything and you don't need to invest more than 50ish points into it even with 3 agi. with tin can builds you simply carry around stealth gear and switch to that whenever

[Pancakus ante Omnia]

im not saying taking per and snooping just for hidden things. snooping with low-mid per is actualy useful if you care about finding things. talking about the OPs build ~10 per would be a good choice for a pistol build (disregarding knife things) and he will get to see most hidden things no snooping needed.

>you cant have high stealth and good armor
I meant at the same time considering you stealth right before combat.

Stealth and dodge/evade have a lot to do together. They scale from agi. Stealth gear doesnt give enough protection to take hits. You can pump stealth with 60 armor penalty but you would be losing so many skillpoints to it its not even funny. You cant change armor in combat. You can get 100+ effective with stealth armor and good cloaking device with 0 skillpoints in stealth at midgame. Sounds like a bad build to invest into stealth for tanks as far a i see it (I did with 3 agi for ambush and i do suffer from reduced defences cuz black cloth on my shielded riot armor is mandatory).
So its either changing gear before/after every fight or pumping evade/dodge with good return on stealth characters and not bothering with leveling up stealth on everyone else (with occasional gear change) unless you aim for ambush.

[fruit flavored ENERGY DRINK]

Originally posted by Pancakus ante Omnia:

im not saying taking per and snooping just for hidden things. snooping with low-mid per is actualy useful if you care about finding things. talking about the OPs build ~10 per would be a good choice for a pistol build (disregarding knife things) and he will get to see most hidden things no snooping needed.

well that's the thing. why would anyone have "mid per"? you either go 3 or 10+. sure i can see some builds starting with 8-9 but then they'd definitely increase that as they go. only exception i can think of is a 6 per psi build that uses crossbow for utility, but even then you still have feats like paranoia, quick pockets, and nimble that can fit into any non feat-starved build

even if you take snooping at 3 per you're going to have to constantly have your perception buffed with gear and consumables since most secrets are at around the 7-11 range. in this case by the time you get access to third eye you'd probably have skipped a good amount of secrets regardless

[Grandmaster_Sherm]

Hey people, Thank you for all the advice. After receiving that first message, and with the limited research I'd done, I decided to say "F**k it" and dip my toes in. I've sunk about 10 hours in over the past couple days, and am absolutely loving it. Now, if you would, please describe to me what I did wrong here lol. It still works but I'm feeling like I messed up.

I'm on normal, using oddity xp.
S-5
D-8
A-6
C-5
P-7
W-5
I-5

Yeah, real jack of all trades there. Was scared to lower stats due to fearing the downsides.
Now my skills (base stat), everything unmentioned is at 0-

Guns and Melee: 45
Throw: 20
evasion:12
stealth: 35
hack: 37
lockpick: 38
traps: 20
mechanics: 28
chemistry: 20
tailoring: 15
persuasion: 45

I'm sure it looks like I left out some important ones, but nope that's all of the base values.

I'm lvl 7, just gained access to Depot A, and am about to enter. I had gotten one special point that I think I put into agility.

(Idk if this is relevant but here's my gear) I'm using a serrated knife, swapping between a 44. Hammerer (took it at the start) and a 7.62 Hammerer LS, but I can't even shoot the .44 twice in a turn so it's usually not my go to. My armor is a rathound overcoat at 19% /4 with stealth bonus of 11, and swap to a insulated vest at 19% /3 mechanical and the 200% bonus against bullets when facing humans. And a balaclava.My character just feels weak, and I have to save scum most encounters. With the .44 it's either a one hit kill or takes 3 bullets- aka- 3 turns. (admittedly I've just been using standard rounds).

I want to know if I should just start over and tighten it up a bit, or keep rolling with it. Might just go pistol and throwing if I do. Idk if I even need intelligence or wisdom when using the oddity system and no psionics.

(put in the necessary points to make molotovs and mechanical repair kits, and plan on going for being able to make a patching kit next).

So yeah let's say I want to use a handgun and throwables, be persuasive, and craft the stuff I would need to/ would rather craft for my build, and use the oddity xp system.

Thanks again for all the wisdom, people.

[Zeem]

Jack of all trades is the one thing that doesn't work. Underrail rewards specialization and building towards a particular goal (which is most commonly dictated by weapon class and which armor you intend to wear).
If you intend to use firearm pistols (as in not chemical or energy ones) you can safely dump Will and Strength since you won't be getting anything out of them and pump Perception (since the Guns skill scales off it - which affects both your accuracy and damage) and Dexterity (which reduces the action point cost of attacking with light weapons - all pistols, SMGs, knives, fist weapons and unarmed). Keep INT at 5 to get a little more oomph out of crafting skills and mercantile and get Agility to 6 or so to allow you to take Sprint. Pistols get 40% evasion ignore in melee range, so you'd want to stay close to enemies to improve your chances of hitting your target.

[Pancakus ante Omnia]

Most builds feel weak at the start before they come together? IIRC I felt the same before my first good energy shield and a decent riot armor that made me immune to most early enemies. You can craft your first shield rather early, tech shops in sgs and south of the embassy in the junkyard sell the components. And good armor components after finding someone for the black eels. I think you should be able to craft a decent smart LS 44. hammerer with smart or seeker googles to oneshot dudes with (smart buffs point shot too) and mb a falchion for more crits if lucky.

WIth your current build you can drop knifes, get aim and point shot if you havent already and later other pistol feats. The first obvous boost i think would be ambush at stealth 40, i hope you have flares. With str 5 steady aim if you really want to (might as well sharpshooter since they both work when focused) or just ambush. Riot gear with burrower shield is possible. Maybe get some use out of psionics (1 school max mb) with Will if you got points to spare (psykinetics? Just that electic trap may be worth it) or yell from intimidation. But you gota push perception to 10 at least for guns skill, thats like straight up 20% more damage and whatever chance to hit. If you can live with a not optimized build its fine. You still get to craft most things, but maybe not the high end stuff since its rather skill intensive. And yes in this case those 45 points in melee would be misspent.
If you already got melee feats i would restart tbh. Feats are that important. Also make a separate save before each lvl up just in case you dont like something. Save editing is possible but its a major pain.
And do make your mind about what type of armor in regards of armor penalty you gona do combat with.

Right at the start aim shot and point shot lets you wreck things with .44 hammerer and lets you shoot twice a turn with it, there's no precision penalty with point shot on enemies in melee range and its still usable 3 tiles away. Stacking ability damage with smart modules with high crit dmg bonus on weapons pushes damage numbers through the roof. But thats already 2 feats for firearms on your knife using build. And i think gunslinger with paranoia (and/or trigger happy) with high either dex or agi (both is best) will let you win initiative and go first most of the time.
Also you can get a considerable amount of 5mm JHP ammo at the start, ups its damage to a higher caliber without ap increase. crafting special ammos comes later sadly.

Will higher than 4 (mb even 3) is wasted if you arent going heavily into at least psi school for damage. taking it just for persuasion or intimidation is not needed. The only downside is reduced resolve so resolve checks and doppelgangers will hurt a lot.

If going for pistols you can dump strengh if you arent going for shielded riot armors (good ones shrug off most knifes, smgs, shotguns and wildlife, unbuffed shields can still counter crawler stings, makes me laugh every time, and you dont need the 2 handers anyway, psi beetle shield is rather light too check str needed for shields on wiki) and steady aim (str 5, rather high). Also i think with ambush you dont take steady aim and maybe ss.
On the other hand agi for mobility if you are without sharpshooter/steady aim is something to consider. Low agi in medium armor is livable, but caltrops are pain. Low agi and no sprint can be a bother but adrenaline shots and temporal contraction (dlc) exist. Also corner peeking and playing with doorways makes ranged enemies come to you and melee enemies are up close to begin with for a juicy aim shot or point shot from a .44 hammerer.
High per and maybe detection goggles (biocorp headgear is godly) lets you see enemy traps, so if you arent planning on using anything besides a bear trap then you can drop this skill too. And a reminder that molotovs are dirt cheap to make and gas grenades have their own separate cooldown.

With a crafted energy shield and +hp gear (pig boots, sturdy vest) and food 3 con doesnt feel that bad with 0 evasion/dodge, but CC and smart gear change is needed to not die. You do feel the squishiness more so in the beginning.

Something like 10 dex and +10 per for a gunslinger at the end sounds good? Just push you main damage atrib as high as you can afford and if you are sweaty calc needed dex for weapons you want. Agi is secondary since it mainly affects mobility and defences with leather armors, int not lower than 5 for crafting as the post above says (with 7+ you can go for energy pistol crit build, I had 12 and enjoyed massive psi mindblasts on meself), str is a dump stat if no riot shields and steady aim, it will hurt your carry cap but you can boost it by 90 with gear/food, consider it if your weapons have min str req (pistols dont have this). Will without psi affects only 1 or 2 social skills of your choosing and resolve. Constitution is your difficulty slider basically, more con means less interesting things but stabler survival and less punishment for mistakes, food and gear can boost it from weakling 3 to a normie 4 or 5 HPwise. HP is technically useless if you kill everything before it drops to zero 4head. For max dmg optimization drop it to 3 and try to live. Remember that morphine goes into a vein before health hypos do.

if going for knifes then dump per (no hidden doors for you) and getting dex/agi high with mobility feats. Knifes can be nasty but you need feats for them to work, cant shamk anything if you cant run up to the enemy across the map. Taking throwing knifes instead of pistols thanks to dex scaling for range wouldnt be wrong too.
On the other hand 3 per high dex versatility without putting any points in guns can still have rather high guns/xbow skill, but guns without feats would be boring i think.

[Grandmaster_Sherm]

Thanks for the advice gentlemen. I think I'm ready to go from here.

And Pancakus, thank you for taking the time to type that out.

[Grandmaster_Sherm]

(Spoilers!) Hey Jacks and Jills, wanted to give a little update on things.

So I made my new build, and have once again reached Junkyard right about to enter the Old Junkyard, and I can safely say this build feels sufficient for the way I want to play the game (sitting at the 7 hour mark this time). I've even been able to raid the Botsmith dungeon which I couldn't even come close to doing last time. And also got access to Abrams quest. Decided to go 10 dexterity, 10 perception, 5 intelligence, and the rest at 3. While it can be a bit annoying having to stash stuff and travel back and forth to retrieve it, it's nothing I didn't have to do in Fallout. With all of these pistol feats, and some sweet rng on my loot drops, I've got what feels to me to be some solid gear, way better than what I was working with and my wallet is much fatter than before. I'm sure this build is still unoptimized, but I really haven't noticed due to crafting different bombs and usually taking out enemies before than can do anything to stop me, which is what I wanted. And of course, making all the persuasions I would really want to without missing out on fun combat encounters. Thank you to all the people who gave me help and advice on howto get started. After this experience, I've got all sorts of ideas for other ways I want play the game with other builds.

A lot of games are marketed as "replayable", but that ends up being a very strong word for very few actual differences. But with this game, I've already seen so many opportunity's for things to play out differently if I had taken high strength or high intimidation, that it actually makes me want to give it another run, and I haven't even beaten the game yet.

Usually, I cannot stand turn based games. Like, at all. I just sit there and starting yelling at the screen wanting people to just start bashing eachother and quit waiting for their damn turn. And while this game doesn't completely negate that feeling (this game + Death Trash's combat would probably be my dream game), I find that I really don't even care about the waiting due to the satisfaction I get from solving combat encounters, exploring the world, and how cool the rp can be. The only other two games that have done this for me are, unironically I'm sure, ATOM RPG and Fallout. Something about a post apocalyptic role playing game is so much more engaging than a dumb made up fantasy one. I admit Baldurs Gate looks cool, but if you're going to put a sword in my hand and orcs in my path, I'm just gonna wanna run around and swing it at them, not contest. But somehow, this setting and atmosphere makes me want to sit back and think about it. After all, orcs and goblins aren't real or possible and are completely made up, but a future where humanity is confined to the Underrail? No the least realistic outcome of our greed.

I know this post is completely "derailed" now, but I'm gonna keep talking anyway.

One of my favorite games of all time is S.T.A.L.K.E.R Anomaly and it's G.A.M.M.A variant. And it seems strange to me I just like to bounce back and force between those games and this one. Both have a pretty strong crafting/ economy focus, but otherwise have almost zero similarities, except for that fact that both give me this sense of wonder, like they both have their own little worlds you can get completely sucked into. Except one is top down and turn based where you can take as much time as you want to solve a problem, and the other is first person real time and you've got about 5 seconds to figure out how you want to play something, or not at all and you're already dead.

Idk, I feel like I need formulate this feeling into a review to try to inspire other first person enthusiasts to give the game a shot. And if it does actually work, expect more threads like this one.

Thanks for reading, and thanks for the advice, jack.

[identity]

Disassemble is a great feat, especially for normal. Requires 7 int, and if you pick it up at 12 or 14, you can dump 5 spec points in it by 21, which lets you disassemble any weapon and remake it at 100% item quality (90% quality without the spec points). This is great for both learning the crafting system and what is useful, and always making sure you have the best quality gear. As an added bonus, you can disassemble an item and remake it for a full repair, so no need for repair kits anymore.

[Zeem]

Disassemble is a noob trap, and without Expedition you won't even have spec points (which are better spent on more broadly useful specs anyway). By level 20 you shouldn't have any issues with getting repair kits anyway, especially on a non-optimized run.