Vivian (SPOILERS)

[Dorok]

Remind there's SPOILERS bellow. :-)
Remind there's SPOILERS bellow. :-)
Remind there's SPOILERS bellow. :-)
Remind there's SPOILERS bellow. :-)
Remind there's SPOILERS bellow. :-)
Remind there's SPOILERS bellow. :-)
....

(at this point steam doesn't show the text with mouse hover)

I didn't had the patience to wait more events related to Vivian, so I just searched to discover there was nothing.

I saw some players find her dialogs bizarre and she is obviously a bit special. But for now it's the only single character a bit attaching and bam killed suddenly with bizarre context and bizarre way (seriously it's ridiculous to say to a newbie in an organization that some veteran of this org is a spy).

Moreover the game throws clues there's more and nope there's nothing more.

All this part end be rather awful felt both frustrating and unfinished and it's even worse if like me you find her attaching, the only single attaching character of the game just killed, lame.

Writer(s) of this game are real newbie(s) it's not awful nor boring to read but so amateurish. It's too bad such indie game can't have the writing pro of non indie games.

That was my rant protest against Vivian stupid murdering, it's an awful design bug that should be fixed.

[MightyFox]

Its one of those things that seperates a good designer from an amatuer. When amatuers grow impatient with the time it takes to create as many varied quest branches as this game has, they leave some as "dead ends" and just never finish them. It seems this is one of those "dead ends' and though there may have supposed to be more, as 1 in 3 per playthrough quest branch (at most) its apparent the designer decided it either too unimportant to finish, or decided to leave it the way it was for "shock value". Either is a poor decision, (and all too common with single programming teams) but nothing anyone can really do about it.

[Uberon]

Agree. One person that catches your eyes and literally that eye-and-ear-candy makes you intrested in moving along with JKK. buuuuut. she killed outside screen and only thing we got - couple of dialog lines bout her status. Shame to bury such a thing.
Yet, devs may have their opinion on this. Do not forget, its not some anime, so things like this is tend to happen, to prove that not everything revolves around MC, and you unable to change things as you like.
But as I see it - i want something more out of this quest. For example - some twist in Core factions part of story - like... why not two-timing (you switch side from JKK to CT, and then as punishment Vivan Young get killed) or taking care of any evidence of Vivian being a spy, or anything else like making her leave Core city? Even faking her death or killing her by hands of MC is compromise I can get. So if you read it, developers, you got an idea(if you didn't already).

[cypherusuh]

3 years of necro is more shocking than higher-ups pruning spies without telling some random newbies the reason.
Knowing less is better in the world of JKK

[Szarekh the Silent King]

Originally posted by MightyFox:

Its one of those things that seperates a good designer from an amatuer. When amatuers grow impatient with the time it takes to create as many varied quest branches as this game has, they leave some as "dead ends" and just never finish them. It seems this is one of those "dead ends' and though there may have supposed to be more, as 1 in 3 per playthrough quest branch (at most) its apparent the designer decided it either too unimportant to finish, or decided to leave it the way it was for "shock value". Either is a poor decision, (and all too common with single programming teams) but nothing anyone can really do about it.

"Amateurs built Noah's ark, professionals built the Titanic." :P

[Tamiore]

I would argue that good designers/writers are actually MORE capable of leaving some plot line unresolved if they can't implement satisfying resolution. A mystery is better than illogical incoherent "answer".
It's the not-so-good-ones that push for resolution even if it half-baked.

[chryssjanzonio]

rip. best character. you where gone so soon. ;c

[Dorok]

There's unsolved and unsolved, reading my OP, clearly this line wasn't just unsolved but not finished at all, typical lost of time to write proper stuff. Lack of idea perhaps but weird.

That said the core problem is more that there's so few attaching characters.

[nightshift]

You can too vent on the original forums[underrail.com] (like a certain someone did).

[☼Arkonev☼]

It's actually decent writing. Sometimes an unresolved mystery is worth more than a resolved one. Notice how upset you are. That's the energy spill over that happens when you set up something and don't pay it off, it's the same energy that keeps someone invested in a story line.

I think it's more of a cruel joke than anything else by the writer.


(Though it did make me unhappy to see. Though I am kind of certain that Styg wanted a bit of clean fun by not giving players a shred of 'payoff') in a way maintaining the sanctity of the real thing.

And that is noble in it's own way. Cruel as it maybe.

[mindless]

Originally posted by ☼Arkonev☼:

And that is noble in it's own way. Cruel as it maybe.

Yep, That's It! I like it and don't like it at the same time.

[MightyFox]

Originally posted by ☼Arkonev☼:

It's actually decent writing. Sometimes an unresolved mystery is worth more than a resolved one. Notice how upset you are. That's the energy spill over that happens when you set up something and don't pay it off, it's the same energy that keeps someone invested in a story line.

I think it's more of a cruel joke than anything else by the writer.


(Though it did make me unhappy to see. Though I am kind of certain that Styg wanted a bit of clean fun by not giving players a shred of 'payoff') in a way maintaining the sanctity of the real thing.

And that is noble in it's own way. Cruel as it maybe.

Nah, it's not 'noble' at all. You are right, it can be good to leave things 'unresolved', but that's not the case here, because here the player has license to actually pursue the issue themselves. This is the big difference between video games and books, and can create a huge disconnect when that license is taken away by unresolved plot threads.

Adding insult to injury is the fact that many quests have multiple ways to solve them, and if someone actually chose to take up Vivian's cause, it could have easily led to say, finding Cornell, as they could have been involved with Vivians murder, or loosely connected in the espionage plot in some way. It's not that the plot thread is 'unresolved', it's that there are multiple ways it could have been resolved, and simply wasn't.

As for the emotional weight, let me put it to you this way. I'm not upset that Vivian died. If you really read into her backstory, and do some of your own investigating, you discover she really wasn't that good of a person. The reason I'm upset is because the entire thing was just left hanging, with the OPTION of pursuit in the dialogue tree, with no actual way to pursue it. That's why this is lazy, and not some brilliant writing decision.

[Voroff]

Originally posted by MightyFox:

Nah, it's not 'noble' at all. That's why this is lazy, and not some brilliant writing decision.

What is lazy ? The work to make a character likable and attaching, with in mind the idea to gib them violently, but rather than showing it to the player it happens off-screen, so players can't try to save her (and reload for about 16 hours of gameplay strait trying that :p) without the need to account for all players abilities AND cheeze and cheats possibles ? (In the first Bioshock, i litterrally laughed for 3 minutes when i realised that the big glass panel between me and the major NPC was here to prevent me killing said NPC without cutting the game into a cutscene).
You got a cold shower, and that was played as intended i think. It made you react, yes, for starters.



"That said the core problem is more that there's so few attaching characters."
I'd rather my Stalker shadow of chernobyl game without a JarJarBinks-like being. Serious atmosphere game need a little bit of gravitas.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by bearhiderug:

Originally posted by cypherusuh:

3 years of necro is more shocking than higher-ups pruning spies without telling some random newbies the reason.
Knowing less is better in the world of JKK

Some people utilize the search function.
Some people bash people for not useing the search function.
Some people bash for a percieved necro that is on topic and adds to the information obtainable by others who DO use said search function...

Agree those blind necro comment should stop when not very obviously valid. Dev never changed multiple points of contention, so thread related to them are still plain valid.

[MightyFox]

Originally posted by Voroff:

Originally posted by MightyFox:

Nah, it's not 'noble' at all. That's why this is lazy, and not some brilliant writing decision.

What is lazy ? The work to make a character likable and attaching, with in mind the idea to gib them violently, but rather than showing it to the player it happens off-screen, so players can't try to save her (and reload for about 16 hours of gameplay strait trying that :p) without the need to account for all players abilities AND cheeze and cheats possibles ? (In the first Bioshock, i litterrally laughed for 3 minutes when i realised that the big glass panel between me and the major NPC was here to prevent me killing said NPC without cutting the game into a cutscene).
You got a cold shower, and that was played as intended i think. It made you react, yes, for starters.



"That said the core problem is more that there's so few attaching characters."
I'd rather my Stalker shadow of chernobyl game without a JarJarBinks-like being. Serious atmosphere game need a little bit of gravitas.

Reading comprehension is obviously not your strong suit. I stated pretty clearly that my issues had nothing to do with trying to prevent her death, or somehow breaking the game to 'save' her. I said, and will say once again, that the OPTION to pursue the case was given, and had no followup. I suppose I could just go around and kill all of JKK, but that wouldn't actually accomplish anything, and I wouldn't be able to find the Acid Hunters. If the developer didn't want to continue the plot thread, it would have been easy enough just to put her body in the sewer to find, (like they do with the Core operative) or have her leave the player a note if she got away. The fact that the developer does do this with another NPC on the main quest line just makes me roll my eyes even more when people keep defending this decision.

[Uberon]

This is life. Sometimes some things happen without our involvement. That is okay by me, since its an exception, not a rule.