Throwing Knives Feats Are Memes

[Body of Eggs]

Title. Thought I could make something work with grenedier / throwing knives / traps but that would not be so. I mean, I can clear rooms of crabs, but strongmen? Unless Styg comes out with augmented throwing knives that penetrate with electricity, they do absolutely nothing to them. Which was fine, I was going to stealth through the Strongmen (as I did with most robots), but then i realized how insane their detection was even with 160-220 stealth. Especially with vast numbers, each spawning after I walked through a narrow hallway.

I mean, I can clear the Strongmen but that requires at minimum 10 EMPs per area. Lots of running around even with Dude's quest completed to lessen the loadscreens as I would need to get TNT / Hexagon for MK IV grenades to clear anything out. I said ♥♥♥♥ it and went to the main quest and faired a bit better due to the fact I befriended the Faceless completely and brought along 40 stacks of MK IV grenades / mines to DC with cloaking gear.

Not entirely sure why throwing knife feets exist given how builds are basically all-or-nothing deals with slight hybrids coming in the form of psionics or versatility builds.

Anyone have better luck with them? Only good thing about throwing knives is you can pin down natives and huck toxic gas / magnesium incendiaries at their crossbowman from the comfort of your jet ski. But that's... not really exclusive to just throwing knives. Any build can do that.

Going to try plasma pistols next run. Cheers to anyone who read through this.

[dergefata]

Throwing knives and their associated feats synergize well with pistol builds since you've already got high Dex for obvious reasons, and you don't need many feats (since there aren't many for pistols). All you really need them for is finishing off enemies - assuming you aren't also using a burst weapon as a secondary, with Commando procs - and pinning them to the ground so you can relocate/LOS or just wait a turn so your cooldowns tick away. Pistols of any flavor are fairly unimpressive for pure flat weapon damage, so you usually end up using those cooldown abilities very often, and relying on good crits.

[Body of Eggs]

Originally posted by dergefata:

Throwing knives and their associated feats synergize well with pistol builds since you've already got high Dex for obvious reasons, and you don't need many feats (since there aren't many for pistols). All you really need them for is finishing off enemies - assuming you aren't also using a burst weapon as a secondary, with Commando procs - and pinning them to the ground so you can relocate/LOS or just wait a turn so your cooldowns tick away. Pistols of any flavor are fairly unimpressive for pure flat weapon damage, so you usually end up using those cooldown abilities very often, and relying on good crits.

Hmm. Will reload to my fight with Carnifex or the um psionic old man fighter and see if I can respec. I thought about that or knives (because ripper helps throwing knives and melee knives) and I have all associated feats with throwing knives by that point so I was trying to find some syngergy there. I have 18 DEX by Tchort but low Perception.

Should I add a few points in perception to make shooting more viable?

How well do pistols or smgs fair against Tchort as even with poison knives and hypertoxicity + three-pointer giving me insane crit roles at times from a high throw percentage, I had to get upclose to the eye to do any dmg. Its weird. Because in order to pin lowbie enemies or add poisons to bosses like Tchort I have to be at close range even with Throw skill over 100+ to effectively use throwing knives at 80% or higher accuracy.

Been using Bear trap or molotov + Oppurtunist to get the ones who survived my MK IV or V frags.

Thanks for the recommendation!

P.S.

Finished with this build but really Grenedier + Three-Pointer were what carried me throughout the game. Seems that each shrapnel shard from frags was affected by crit chance from this feat which did a ton of dmg. Critted Tchort with over 400 dmg from one frag at one point.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMQCQMDBQcAwqAAAMKgwqDChkgyADJaXFRPSwAAAABKAAAkJh0WWD5cUV4bDyg5QjDCs3binqYC4qCeA-KlvArfvw

[Morgian]

The weapon against strongmen in your case would be the plasma grenade - mk3 preferably, which can be crafted in fair numbers. Strongmen and other robots are pretty much the rock to your scissors after all. I usually need only one plasma grenade for a group of them, sometimes I need to clear up a few hitpoints afterwards (on hard).
You can find the recipe mostly on one of the Black Sea merchants, but it also found as loot there. The components are thin grenade cases a number of plasma detonators and a battery. I use them sparingly as the last word or my primary attack against groups.

[dergefata]

Originally posted by Chaddicus Mechanicus:

I have 18 DEX by Tchort but low Perception. [...] Should I add a few points in perception to make shooting more viable?

How well do pistols or smgs fair against Tchort

10 Perception is usually fine for short-range or burst builds. If you've got the expansion, and you've got a bit of that marsh honey with you, you maybe could get by with a little less but I wouldn't be happy with anything under 8, before buffs.

Firearm pistols can manage with some care, but other pistol builds do fine. If you don't have any stealth, and you also didn't do the mutagen puzzle, then you're going to need grenades to have any sort of chance. Otherwise, just rush right to the eye and get the kill; don't waste too much time with the tentacles and wandering critters or you can get overwhelmed. With a good crit, you can one-shot the eye with a well-buffed pistol.

[Wilbur Mercer]

Full dexterity melee goes best with throwing. Throwing helps it early and you can still max it late for fatal throw and to toss around 350 throwing skill three pointer plasma 3s.

[Body of Eggs]

Originally posted by Morgian:

The weapon against strongmen in your case would be the plasma grenade - mk3 preferably, which can be crafted in fair numbers. Strongmen and other robots are pretty much the rock to your scissors after all. I usually need only one plasma grenade for a group of them, sometimes I need to clear up a few hitpoints afterwards (on hard).
You can find the recipe mostly on one of the Black Sea merchants, but it also found as loot there. The components are thin grenade cases a number of plasma detonators and a battery. I use them sparingly as the last word or my primary attack against groups.

Yeah I completely ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up saving up on plasma dischargers. Thought they were things I would sell because I was still in the mindset of stealthing through strong enemies early-on. That... and because I kept micromanaging various lootstacks, trying to look out for bear-traps, hexogen, TNT, frag cases, thin grenade cases, toxic gas + starter mixture, napalm, throwing knives, crawler knives, lower-tier metals to craft crawler knives, ampules for the crawler or burrower knives, etc.

It was a loooooot of running back and forth with materials I usually never considered bringing along with me being looted for their potential to sell for more knives and materials. (Godman bless Styg for giving us Dude and the Juice).

One thing I'll say is that on hard, split-spare + ripper + fatal throw are fairly decent on squishy enemies after a frag III - IV hits five guys. Chaining kills with traps was a joy when it worked.

Next run I'll focus on storing them because I had the plasma grenade blueprint learned but by that point was in DC.

Really... different way of playing the game and at times was fun roleplaying as a doomsday prepper. But boy was it tedious.

[Body of Eggs]

Originally posted by dergefata:

Originally posted by Chaddicus Mechanicus:

I have 18 DEX by Tchort but low Perception. [...] Should I add a few points in perception to make shooting more viable?

How well do pistols or smgs fair against Tchort

10 Perception is usually fine for short-range or burst builds. If you've got the expansion, and you've got a bit of that marsh honey with you, you maybe could get by with a little less but I wouldn't be happy with anything under 8, before buffs.

Firearm pistols can manage with some care, but other pistol builds do fine. If you don't have any stealth, and you also didn't do the mutagen puzzle, then you're going to need grenades to have any sort of chance. Otherwise, just rush right to the eye and get the kill; don't waste too much time with the tentacles and wandering critters or you can get overwhelmed. With a good crit, you can one-shot the eye with a well-buffed pistol.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?EAMOCQMDBQcAWgAAWlpGQS0APC0AWh4tAAAAAAAAACQmHRZYD1FcPl7inqYB378

Current build I found prior to fighting the psi-guy in Arena. lvl-16.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMOCQMFBQfCoGQAAMKgwqBfRjIAPFpVWlBLAAAAAAAAACQmHRZYD1FcPl5PS1tJwrU3MeKepgLip6oD4qe-Ct-_

A theory build based on SMGs + Pinning as you suggested. Huge issue is I can't get Perception at minimum to 8 from this save as it is my oldest save on this character.

Originally posted by Wilbur Mercer:

Full dexterity melee goes best with throwing. Throwing helps it early and you can still max it late for fatal throw and to toss around 350 throwing skill three pointer plasma 3s.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMQCQMDBQcAWgDCoMKgwqBaRi0APFpaWlpVAAAAAAAAACQmHRZYD1FcPl4GAE8xSxDCs-KdjQrinqYC4qe-A9-_

Theory build two to synergize with Ripper / full dex. Basic plan is to dump 2 lvls here w/ 80 skill points into melee so that by lvl 18, Cheap Shots can start doing work. Weaponsmith for a maybe a temporary self-crafted knife up-until I get higher quality materials at later lvls. Then expertise for more mechanical dps.

Dunno what my odds are against Tchort with 3 constitution as my swordflurry build had min of 5 and still got one-shotted at times for being so close-range with Tchortlings that ran past my minefields or say... if I didn't finish off the tentacles in time and ran out of irongut for the Eye of Tchort. I know now to just run straight at the thing after completing the Mutagen puzzle w/ high-stealth gear.

Not entirely sure if 3 strength is viable for knives against high mechanical resistence enemies.

Side-note, I don't know what Tchort is considered as in-game so I didn't take Monster-slayer for the 15% bonus.

Cheers m8s! Thanks for the recommends.

[Wilbur Mercer]

It goes against the build's logic but you can take a late versatile feat on a dex crit melee build and you can instantly use a crafted laser or electro pistol that will get massive crits. It's hard to skip, especially with all the mech tanky stuff in Expedition.

[Body of Eggs]

Originally posted by Wilbur Mercer:

It goes against the build's logic but you can take a late versatile feat on a dex crit melee build and you can instantly use a crafted laser or electro pistol that will get massive crits. It's hard to skip, especially with all the mech tanky stuff in Expedition.

Its too late. The part of my brain that matches pairs of socks by length, manufacturer, and color, well, it made me choose melee knife feats to get something off of the Ripper feat.

Also wait why versatility feat for Laser pistols? Aren't Tasers considered combat utility not melee item?

[Wilbur Mercer]

Laser pistols count as guns. Versatility on a light melee build gives you 60% of your melee skill in guns and crossbows. So if you have like 350 melee skill in the late game versatility will instantly give you over 200 in guns. Since you already have a lot of dexterity for your melee you also get a large AP discount on pistols, including laser pistols, letting you shoot them like 5-6 times a turn.

Laser/electro/plasma pistols also get a big inherent critical damage bonus by crafting them with a high quality circular wave amplifier. That in turn works very well with the critical power feat, giving you the ability to do good amounts of energy or electric damage on critical hits.

So one feat gives you an effective ranged option that works with feats and stats you already picked for use with melee anyway, and it lets you hit energy/electric resists on enemies that are very resistant to your merchanical melee. Early on it sucks because you haven't pumped dexterity enough to get a high enough melee skill for those 60% skill values to be useful, but it is a very high impact feat later on, like at level 22 or 24.

[Body of Eggs]

Originally posted by Wilbur Mercer:

Laser pistols count as guns. Versatility on a light melee build gives you 60% of your melee skill in guns and crossbows. So if you have like 350 melee skill in the late game versatility will instantly give you over 200 in guns. Since you already have a lot of dexterity for your melee you also get a large AP discount on pistols, including laser pistols, letting you shoot them like 5-6 times a turn.

Laser/electro/plasma pistols also get a big inherent critical damage bonus by crafting them with a high quality circular wave amplifier. That in turn works very well with the critical power feat, giving you the ability to do good amounts of energy or electric damage on critical hits.

So one feat gives you an effective ranged option that works with feats and stats you already picked for use with melee anyway, and it lets you hit energy/electric resists on enemies that are very resistant to your merchanical melee. Early on it sucks because you haven't pumped dexterity enough to get a high enough melee skill for those 60% skill values to be useful, but it is a very high impact feat later on, like at level 22 or 24.

Good point. My swordflurry char had 14 DEX by the end of the game and could regularly use sniper rifles to lure enemies. I used an acid pistol for the chance it would ensnare + acid penetrated through Strongmen and crabs.

Might run a versatility + plasma pistol build next run as this build is too polluted with throwing knife feats.

Very good idea.

[Body of Eggs]

Originally posted by Wilbur Mercer:

Laser pistols count as guns. Versatility on a light melee build gives you 60% of your melee skill in guns and crossbows. So if you have like 350 melee skill in the late game versatility will instantly give you over 200 in guns. Since you already have a lot of dexterity for your melee you also get a large AP discount on pistols, including laser pistols, letting you shoot them like 5-6 times a turn.

Laser/electro/plasma pistols also get a big inherent critical damage bonus by crafting them with a high quality circular wave amplifier. That in turn works very well with the critical power feat, giving you the ability to do good amounts of energy or electric damage on critical hits.

So one feat gives you an effective ranged option that works with feats and stats you already picked for use with melee anyway, and it lets you hit energy/electric resists on enemies that are very resistant to your merchanical melee. Early on it sucks because you haven't pumped dexterity enough to get a high enough melee skill for those 60% skill values to be useful, but it is a very high impact feat later on, like at level 22 or 24.

Update: I tried it on another run and got to lvl-10 fairly easily on Dominating. Didn't take Versatility yet but melee into laser-pistol is going to be interesting. Already got a circular wave amplifier and waiting for electronics to lvl-up enough to craft some early laser pistol armor.

However, I don't think this would've been applicable in my current main character with throwing-knives even if I went back to the save before I made it more melee orientated. Versatility wouldn't be enough on its own given my feats by that point (as listed above) took a significant portion of throwing knife feats with scant space for investing in laser pistol / shooting feats that would be critical to get a build optimized for Tchort.

Throwing knife feats are just hard-mode if your enemy didn't die or get real low by the first frag V for fatal throw + ripper (and hopefully split-spare). No joke, I've spent literally hours going from vendor to vendor to get more stygs so I can stockpile hexogen for frag vs. I have 40 backup frags and 20 backup HEs at V lvl.

I really wonder if Styg trolled the playerbase by making these worthless feats for throwing knives because they are the definition of "dump stats". Luckily, I have other builds and saves to turn to. If I didn't take knife feats, this would be an even slower grind.

EDIT: it did... make me really appreciate the fact that one stick of TNT can lure an entire map. Sometimes... enemy mobs will straight up attack another enemy type, thus, making it easier for you to kill the stragglers.