The Bilocation Question

[Body of Eggs]

There is no active resolution against an enemy doppleganger that is immune to all forms of dmg. Its bizarre because actually using Bilocation is rather ineffective, as, when the target dies, the dopples for you disappear. The inverse of that however?

You have no counter to Bilocation outside of killing 1 out of 40 guys in a room. Which is made more obnoxious because the one or two guys who do bilocation are usually at the far back of the room. The only way to build against Bilocation is to have builds/gear that provides high movement AP or have Forcefield.

I can get behind psionics being nerfed as it creates more build variety. But the fact that there's this huge disparity in usefulness as illustrated above for Bilocation is ridiculous. It presents as a sweaty DnD, finger-of-death mechanic. An excuse or justification for the devs to create hard roadblocks in the form of Lurkers or Natives who possess Bilocation., rather than presenting as a useful spell in itself.

Tell me, why use Bilocation (as the player) when there are far more useful single-target or AoE psionic spells or grenades you could use instead? Options that eliminate targets faster for the AP / PSI cost.

Finally, I believe the inclusion of this spell contrasts with the design of the rest of the game. Every spell, creature, and encounter has weaknesses you can exploit. A doppleganger is immune to all forms of dps. All you can do is stall it. There's no proactive solution outside of stalling once the psionic has cast its spell rotation on you, only preemptive solutions such as metagaming the map and maneuvering enemy npcs to "block" the one Thought Control psionic.

It's bizarre given the game gives you a resolution for a very specific "astral" entity that I won't spoil. Why wouldn't I be able to use the Juice to counteract enemies of a similar nature?

[Tamiore]

Except you can easily kill doppelgängers with neural overload. So you entire post is effectively beside the point.

[Doomsayer Kab]

While Neural Overload does not require any skill investment, it does require taking the red pill. Clearly, the pill is left as a choice to the player, it's not meant to be something 99% of people take.
You can't expect the solution to Dopplegangers to be an optional choice that permanently affects your build.

[Tamiore]

Originally posted by Doomsayer:

While Neural Overload does not require any skill investment, it does require taking the red pill. Clearly, the pill is left as a choice to the player, it's not meant to be something 99% of people take.
You can't expect the solution to Dopplegangers to be an optional choice that permanently affects your build.

The "solution to dopplegangers" for different builds involves killing the psion, or sneaking by, or running away, etc.

All perfectly viable solutions. Not all builds are meant to have THE SAME solution for every challenge.

OP's point, however, was entirely predicated on the implication that "doppleganger is immune to all forms of dps". That's simply false.

[Doomsayer Kab]

Stealth can reliably work to spot casters before engaging in a fight, I'm willing to accept that.

However, there still exist builds, oddly enough, that use neither stealth nor psionics. Those builds usually engage a fight in a map, reliably kill everything, until a caster pops in from the fog of war and immediately casts Bilocation
That build is then forced to reload, as it has lost the fight in an instant

I suppose those builds might want to stack damage resistance more (ex: start risky areas with Aegis, and pop a Morphine when Dopplegangers appear)

[Tamiore]

Originally posted by Doomsayer:

Stealth can reliably work to spot casters before engaging in a fight, I'm willing to accept that.

However, there still exist builds, oddly enough, that use neither stealth nor psionics. Those builds usually engage a fight in a map, reliably kill everything, until a caster pops in from the fog of war and immediately casts Bilocation
That build is then forced to reload, as it has lost the fight in an instant

I suppose those builds might want to stack damage resistance more (ex: start risky areas with Aegis, and pop a Morphine when Dopplegangers appear)

How is Bilocation different (in this context) from just getting hit with a stun?
Being literally unable to act for a turn or two is as much of a "fight lost in an instant'.
Arguably, Dopplegangers are less on an issue: you can run away from them. You can't run away from being stunned.

[WalrusJones]

The bilocation clones actually last several turns after the caster dies in many cases, and there are points where you are fighting 3-4 casters of bilocation at once in the story (Such as the end of the core city questline.)

The only consistent rule I can think of for having the advantage against them is pretty much something thats already been said here.... Win initiative and have a build that is good at clearing or fearing full rooms of people in a single turn (Like a spec ops+commando SMG build, for instance. Or a metathermics build. Or both in one.)

[Doomsayer Kab]

There's lots of builds that can survive being stunned for a couple of turns. If the enemies all do 10% of your health per turn, you can survive a long time without doing anything
Doppleganger ignore all your armor and energy shields. They can kill you in 2-3 turns no matter what gear you're wearing

[Tamiore]

Originally posted by Doomsayer:

There's lots of builds that can survive being stunned for a couple of turns.

There are lots of builds that can survive bilocation, but will get absolutely decimated by a stun.

So I still don't really see why bilocation is somehow more troublesome in general.

[Body of Eggs]

Originally posted by Tamiore:

Originally posted by Doomsayer:

There's lots of builds that can survive being stunned for a couple of turns.

There are lots of builds that can survive bilocation, but will get absolutely decimated by a stun.

So I still don't really see why bilocation is somehow more troublesome in general.

Given it dodge or armor doesn't factor into the doppleganger's dps, I disagree. Having high resolve may be an issue in the game's current state as builds diverge farther from Psi-only or Heavy-Psi orientated builds that focus on having more Will. This is exemplified by the fact you can take low-will builds augmented with 1-2 schools that provide utilities to your main mode of dps.

So, I would argue that the amount of builds that actually do have high resolve has went down.

The fact that there is no real way to mitigate this form of dps - outside of resolve - from an NPC is ridiculous on its own. I can build reserve multiple armors for different dps types, create head armor that resist flashbangs, turn myself on fire through Metathermics to mitigate environmental dmg/remove elemental snares, etc.

But for Dopplegangers? Usually the scenario for both my juggernaut and my stealth sniper + temporal manip guys are:

- Run away,
- put up a forcefield (if my char even has that),
- waste consumable buffs while running away,
- run out of the map because the dopplegangers last 4 turns and don't dissipate if I kill the original psionic who summoned them,
- if more thought control psykers exist on the map, rinse and repeat.

Outside of fully min-maxing builds and metagaming all maps, its more annoying to deal with than challenging. There is very little reason for players to not have more ways to at least stun the doppleganger with Stasis or Cryostasis. Or, as I suggested in the original post, use the Juice to actually interact with the dopplegangers, as precedent has been set with Magnar.

[Doomsayer Kab]

As for that last comment, void entities (such as Magnar's "shadow") exist outside of your mind. Dopplegangers exist only in your mind. They're not actually related, so there's no reason to think the Juice would help for Dopplegangers.
But perhaps there could be another medicine that helps characters strengthen their resolve, sure.

[Tamiore]

Originally posted by Mass:

Originally posted by Tamiore:

There are lots of builds that can survive bilocation, but will get absolutely decimated by a stun.

So I still don't really see why bilocation is somehow more troublesome in general.

Given it dodge or armor doesn't factor into the doppleganger's dps, I disagree. Having high resolve may be an issue in the game's current state as builds diverge farther from Psi-only or Heavy-Psi orientated builds that focus on having more Will. This is exemplified by the fact you can take low-will builds augmented with 1-2 schools that provide utilities to your main mode of dps.

So, I would argue that the amount of builds that actually do have high resolve has went down.

The fact that there is no real way to mitigate this form of dps - outside of resolve - from an NPC is ridiculous on its own. I can build reserve multiple armors for different dps types, create head armor that resist flashbangs, turn myself on fire through Metathermics to mitigate environmental dmg/remove elemental snares, etc.

But for Dopplegangers? Usually the scenario for both my juggernaut and my stealth sniper + temporal manip guys are:

- Run away,
- put up a forcefield (if my char even has that),
- waste consumable buffs while running away,
- run out of the map because the dopplegangers last 4 turns and don't dissipate if I kill the original psionic who summoned them,
- if more thought control psykers exist on the map, rinse and repeat.

Outside of fully min-maxing builds and metagaming all maps, its more annoying to deal with than challenging. There is very little reason for players to not have more ways to at least stun the doppleganger with Stasis or Cryostasis. Or, as I suggested in the original post, use the Juice to actually interact with the dopplegangers, as precedent has been set with Magnar.

At this point this is devolving into personal preferences, honestly.
Yes, you can't easily mitigate dps from dopplegangers. But you can simply run away. That's an obvious counter-play.
While when you get stunned, you are most likely dead unless you are running a build that actively relies on face-tanking (rather than any form of CC, evasion or kiting).

[Body of Eggs]

Originally posted by Doomsayer:

As for that last comment, void entities (such as Magnar's "shadow") exist outside of your mind. Dopplegangers exist only in your mind. They're not actually related, so there's no reason to think the Juice would help for Dopplegangers.
But perhaps there could be another medicine that helps characters strengthen their resolve, sure.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Tamiore:

At this point this is devolving into personal preferences, honestly.
Yes, you can't easily mitigate dps from dopplegangers. But you can simply run away. That's an obvious counter-play.
While when you get stunned, you are most likely dead unless you are running a build that actively relies on face-tanking (rather than any form of CC, evasion or kiting).

>simply run away.

Again, I already stated how this makes the game completely non-interactive.

"Oh you ran away from the map because the dopplegangers made you waste all your resources, here, have more dopplegangers as soon as you re-enter the map."

It's a non-interactive game mechanic and what you fundamentally ignore is this: neural overlord... only works to hamper dopplegangers... if you have invested points in Thought Control.

Let's take for example Death Stalkers. Bear traps are easily affordable for all character builds. Sound can attract an entire room of them to a killzone room. Builds with Exotermic Aura can mitigate Death Stalker healing.

Or Lurkers (discounting the ones at the back that are Thought Control), Ironheads, Psionic Crabs, etc.There are a number of ways any build can take advantage of the game's crafting mechanics, psionics, etc. (even without much point investment) to counteract a foe and eventually, put their HP to 0. Nearly all enemy types conform to these rules. If they cannot be ensared, they may be stunned or feared. If they resist a lot of mechanical dmg, they might have lower resistences against Plasma type effects / dps.

The list goes on for the number of viable options to tackle an enemy type. That is what is engaging about the game.

Compared to that, Dopplegangers are like borderline unstoppable obstacles that don't conform to the rules other enemies seem to abide by (e.g., having actual ways to interact with them outside of running).

[King Fossil]

I don't think it'd be too bad if dopplegangers could be killed with normal weapons. Give them high DR vs everything so it's hard, but still possible. Though that'd mean it could be beaten with AP ammo like void horrors so that's dumb. They should change that so AP ammo doesn't work on them.
That said I don't think they're that much of a problem. They're really strong against some builds but that's okay. No build should be invincible vs everything.

[Tamiore]

Dopplegangers are not "enemies". It's a debuff/attack.
You can't "interact" with many other debuffs as well. If anything, dopplegangers are actually pretty interactive for a debuff/attack. Compare them to a stun, for example, where you can literally do NOTHING once it lands (unless you have one very specific feat).

[happybjorn]

Nonsense, they are a summoned enemy. Unlike summons in millions of other games, including summons like burrower eggs in Underrail, they are immune to almost everything.

The op may have been off on most of the details, but they are annoying.