Why is Oddity Exp system better?

[trias10]

Am currently doing my first ever playthrough of this game, and agonised over oddity vs classic when I started. Eventually went with oddity as everyone seems to recommend it, however, am not sure I understand why oddity is mathematically better.

As I understand it, there are a fixed amount of oddity points in the game, currently 110. After level 14, you need 30 XP per level, so that's 110 / 30 = 3.667 levels worth of oddity experience. Given there are 25 max levels in the game, that seems a tiny amount of levels gained via oddity alone.

Contrast with Classic, which has an infinite (more or less, as certain enemies respawn endlessly) amount of exp available in the game.

It seems that from a math perspective, classic is better, but pretty much everyone recommends oddity instead. Why is that? It certainly seems that from a power gaming aspect, classic is better as you can grind infinite exp up to level 25, but with oddity you can't grind, your max possible gain is 3.667 levels (all other experience, like from quests, held constant between the two).

[Tamiore]

Oddity is better because you cannot and need not grind for XP, and get rewarded irregardless of HOW you get the job done (i.e. combat solutions are not preferable under oddity).

[Qiox]

Originally posted by trias10:

As I understand it, there are a fixed amount of oddity points in the game, currently 110.

That's not right. Where did you get that number?

There's more than that of just different types of oddities. And you can earn xp multiple times from most of them. And many of them give more than 1 xp each. And even if you are limited to earning xp for a particular oddity, say 3 times, there will most likely many more than just 3 in the world that you could find.


The main reason people prefer it is that xp progression is better balanced around the oddity system.

When playing with classic xp, it is very easy to hit the level cap when you have as much as 1/3 of the game left to play.

[Jean-Luc]

When people say oddity is better they don't mean "faster to level up with". They mean that it's more immersive, interesting, that it rewards exploration more, encourages non-combat approaches to situations and provides a more even pace of progression.

Whether those things have any value to you is up to you.

[trias10]

Originally posted by Qiox:

Originally posted by trias10:

When playing with classic xp, it is very easy to hit the level cap when you have as much as 1/3 of the game left to play.

Oh great, so I did choose the wrong system after all :-(

[Qiox]

Originally posted by trias10:

Oh great, so I did choose the wrong system after all :-(

I wouldn't say that. I have well over 700 hours played and I've only chosen the oddity method once. I actually prefer classic.

Also, with the DLC raising the level cap to 30, hitting the cap too early is far less of a concern with the classic system.

[trias10]

Originally posted by Qiox:

I wouldn't say that. I have well over 700 hours played and I've only chosen the oddity method once. I actually prefer classic.

Also, with the DLC raising the level cap to 30, hitting the cap too early is far less of a concern with the classic system.

But that's what I mean, I prefer to hit the level cap early and then play the game as a god, because then I know the combat will be easy and I can relax, stop thinking about min-maxing, and just sit back and enjoy the plot.

Knowing now that if I had picked Classic, I could be level 25 with 1/3 of the game remaining makes me feel really bad about my first playthrough, and even if it's worth just restarting the game to play with Classic instead.

Ugh, this is bad game design to allow two significantly different options like this and leave new players to potentially make a very bad choice with no information. It spoils what is otherwise a great game. If the developer intended oddity as the "True" experience, then they should've removed Classic entirely so dumb newbie players don't pick wrong like I did.

[Serendipitous]

because then I know the combat will be easy and I can relax, stop thinking about min-maxing, and just sit back and enjoy the plot.

Even after hitting level cap, combat will not be easy, especially on Hard+ (depending on your build even Normal mode will stay pretty challenging to the end). So, none of that.

Combat and theorycrafting is main part of the attraction of the game anyway.

Ugh, this is bad game design to allow two significantly different options like this and leave new players to potentially make a very bad choice with no information.

So i guess you are experienced game designer to say what is bad design and what isn't. Or not

The consequences can be inferred from reading the description. I says that oddity does not award xp for killing and skill usage, meaning that most likely it will offer slower progression.

[trias10]

Originally posted by Qiox:

That's not right. Where did you get that number?

There's more than that of just different types of oddities. And you can earn xp multiple times from most of them. And many of them give more than 1 xp each. And even if you are limited to earning xp for a particular oddity, say 3 times, there will most likely many more than just 3 in the world that you could find.


The main reason people prefer it is that xp progression is better balanced around the oddity system.

When playing with classic xp, it is very easy to hit the level cap when you have as much as 1/3 of the game left to play.

You are correct, my number was very wrong, I read it from another thread here on the forums.

I have looked at the wiki and manually calculated that the correct number is 458 (or 452, some of the numbers on the wiki may not be correct). That is enough oddity XP to take you from level 1 to 21, and that's not even accounting for quest XP.

So there's definitely enough XP there to hit the level cap, it just seems like it's slower in coming compared to Classic XP.

[trias10]

Originally posted by carashi:

So i guess you are experienced game designer to say what is bad design and what isn't. Or not

The consequences can be inferred from reading the description. I says that oddity does not award xp for killing and skill usage, meaning that most likely it will offer slower progression.

The keywords being "most likely". Some of us are more analytical and want to know exactly by how much, we want to see hard numbers and data, understand the distributions, so we can make an informed decision, rather than just reading a one sentence tooltip. This is a large investment of time after all, easily 50 hours, you don't want to waste all that time playing with a system which makes you weaker compared to a different system.

There just doesn't seem to be a reason to have two systems, which can dramatically change your experience in the game. The game designer obviously prefers one over another, and should just go with that. Why give the option for new players to pick the wrong system and end up underleveled and frustrated with the game? There's just no reason to have this.

Going into the game complete new, you have a 50% chance of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ up your entire gameplay by picking the wrong system, and that's just stupid.

I picked the wrong the system (oddity) and am pretty mad that I've now wasted all this time because had I picked classic I would be 3-4 levels higher than I am, and significantly more powerful. It makes me no longer want to play the game because I don't want to play knowing I'm playing sub-optimal, and I'm too many hours in to want to restart, so I'm just giving up on this game.

That's why it's bad game design -- your design choices lead to players dropping your game. I love this game, but I'm not going to play it on a sub-optimal path.

[Serendipitous]

This is a large investment of time after all, easily 50 hours, you don't want to waste all that time playing with a system which makes you weaker compared to a different system.

You don't need to invest 50 hours just to see how the exp system works. One would suffice.

This is a large investment of time after all, easily 50 hours, you don't want to waste all that time playing with a system which makes you weaker compared to a different system.

Classic is a legacy system. Some people like it more than oddity and it was left in there.

Why give the option for new players to pick the wrong system and end up underleveled and frustrated with the game?

So how exactly removing classic system would fix that? Besides, you wouldn't be "underleveled" with oddity, unless you do no exploration at all, you would be level as you intended to be to take challenges on.

Going into the game complete new, you have a 50% chance of ♥♥♥♥ing up your entire gameplay by picking the wrong system, and that's just stupid.

There are no wrong systems, they give different experiences, but each has it's own cons and pros. You are warned about what they do in the beginning. If you not the type to read stuff, then the game wasn't designed with you as player in mind.

That's why it's bad game design -- your design choices lead to players dropping your game. I love this game, but I'm not going to play it on a sub-optimal path.

Design is bad when it does not achieved the stated goal. And this game was not designed for people who want to easily walk through game (though there is an Easy mode, i guess), it was designed for people who like challenge, understanding game mechanics and theorycrafting. You can say that this is an "old school" type of the game that is hard and requires dedication and investment from a player, especially on harder difficulties. Some people like that and some don't. This is the game for those who likes stuff like that. Saying something about bad design when you are not an intended audience just shows that you have no clue what you are talking about.

[trias10]

Originally posted by carashi:

Design is bad when it does not achieved the stated goal. And this game was not designed for people who want to easily walk through game (though there is an Easy mode, i guess), it was designed for people who like challenge, understanding game mechanics and theorycrafting. You can say that this is an "old school" type of the game that is hard and requires dedication and investment from a player, especially on harder difficulties. Some people like that and some don't. This is the game for those who likes stuff like that. Saying something about bad design when you are not an intended audience just shows that you have no clue what you are talking about.

I'm not complaining about the difficulty or learning curve, did I ever say anything about that?

This game is hard, and punishing, and I'm totally okay with all that. I read about this game thoroughly before I went into it, knowing how much of a turn off it could be to new players, knowing how old school it was, and especially knowing that certain builds are MUCH stronger than others.

That is why I did a lot of research before I ever started playing (reading lots of online guides and YT videos), meticulously mapping out my first build, with an Excel spreadsheet which outlines exactly how many skillpoints in every skill at every level I wanted. I was extremely well prepared. And I still died a lot early on, and it never stopped me, I knew the game was hard but I was enjoying it very much nonetheless. I don't mind hard work or old school challenges, I'm not complaining about that or asking for an Easy Mode.

But I do care a lot if all that hard work and time investment goes out the window purely because of a one sentence tooltip selection at the beginning: Oddity or Classic. Again, there was no hard data, no statistics to really drive home the differences between systems. The game explains the difference with ONE sentence, that's just terrible.

And even then I did online research, read every link Google gave me when I searched for "UnderRail oddity or classic", and everyone seemed to recommend Oddity, but with no hard numbers backing it up, so I just picked Oddity. And I still enjoyed the game for 26 hours, but now I find out I have been playing a sub-optimal approach, that all that blood sweat and tears, all those early deaths, that hard work, well, it gave me a sub-optimal outcome, all that work I put in, I could have been 3-4 levels higher than I currently am with classic.

That pisses me off. That's just bad design due to an arbitrary choice at character creation time which is neither explained in great detail nor detailed super well anywhere else on the web. No hard numbers anywhere.

You end up under-leveled not because you're not diligent, or able to read carefully, or play a difficult game. It has nothing to do with gamer skill or intelligence. It has everything to do with not enough information being given to the player for a truly informed decision to be made.

I'm a thoughtful, analytical person and read all the text on the screen, and I understood the difference between classic vs oddity, but nowhere did it state that "you'll level up faster with classic and hit the level cap sooner". That's the information I really wanted and it was not presented to me by the game.

[Woudo]

So even though both options quickly result in hitting the experience limit, you're still chucking a tanty, and your reasoning for this tantrum is "If i'd chosen Classic, I would have hit the cap faster and been able to breeze through the game faster."

In the words of the late artist, XXXTENTATION
SAD!

All you care about is finishing the game and moving on. You don't even want to enjoy it, just "get it done".

[trias10]

Originally posted by Woudo:

So even though both options quickly result in hitting the experience limit, you're still chucking a tanty, and your reasoning for this tantrum is "If i'd chosen Classic, I would have hit the cap faster and been able to breeze through the game faster."

In the words of the late artist, XXXTENTATION
SAD!

All you care about is finishing the game and moving on. You don't even want to enjoy it, just "get it done".

Not true at all. I like RPGs immensely, but I hate leveling up and choosing skills, I just want to sit back and enjoy the plot, without having to worry about min-maxing, feats, all that bollocks which I don't have time for anymore in my life (I get precious few gaming hours each week).

The sooner I hit the level cap, the sooner I'm godlike, the sooner I can switch off the analytical part of my brain and just sit back and enjoy the plot, slow and savour every moment, knowing I'm no longer obsessing about skillpoint distributions, feat selection, where to get quest exp, etc.

Ain't nobody got time for that ♥♥♥♥♥, I just want to enjoy the storyline and atmosphere, the whole leveling up stuff/character building just gets in the way, it's just needless fluff.

[Woudo]

http://underrail.info.tm/

You said you'd already researched your build. If you already know the answers and what you're taking at each level, why does it matter? You just play like normal and if you level up, you look over to your plan and bang in whatever you've already decided.

What time that level up happens is irrelevant.

[walter]

Originally posted by trias10:

Originally posted by Woudo:

So even though both options quickly result in hitting the experience limit, you're still chucking a tanty, and your reasoning for this tantrum is "If i'd chosen Classic, I would have hit the cap faster and been able to breeze through the game faster."

In the words of the late artist, XXXTENTATION
SAD!

All you care about is finishing the game and moving on. You don't even want to enjoy it, just "get it done".

Not true at all. I like RPGs immensely, but I hate leveling up and choosing skills, I just want to sit back and enjoy the plot, without having to worry about min-maxing, feats, all that bollocks which I don't have time for anymore in my life (I get precious few gaming hours each week).

The sooner I hit the level cap, the sooner I'm godlike, the sooner I can switch off the analytical part of my brain and just sit back and enjoy the plot, slow and savour every moment, knowing I'm no longer obsessing about skillpoint distributions, feat selection, where to get quest exp, etc.

Ain't nobody got time for that ♥♥♥♥♥, I just want to enjoy the storyline and atmosphere, the whole leveling up stuff/character building just gets in the way, it's just needless fluff.

The game was balanced around the oddity system which is trying to reward exploration and creativivity when dealing with obstacles. It is supposed to give you a solid challenge at any point in the game instead of rewarding midnless grind and allowing the player to turn the game into a walking simulator.

Now dont get me wrong, see your position, but you cant fault the game for sticking to its own idea.

There is always the option to start at the lowest difficulty if one wants to avoid min maxing throughout the game.