Crossbow build

[Karina]

Got any tips for a crossbow build relevant to a current game version? It has a lot of supporting feats and wide array of avalible options- more then a dozen avalible bolts and several crossbow models, each with a distinct advantage. Im havily leaning towards cyclone crossbow, because it can fire 3 (5 with adrenalive) shots. But even then still there is a lot of options, but i prefer build that do not overrely on stealth.

[Drokmon]

Bleed build. Vile Weaponry feat. A Zephyr / Hurricane / Tornado crossbow with super string, an AA scope and broadhead bolts. Maximum mechanical / crit damage for maximum bleed damage. Can use Kneecap Shot for a weaker bleed while draining their MP so they can't catch you as they bleed out. Maybe soften up the target first with a Leper poison bear trap so that they take more mechanical damage (and thus more bleed damage) as well as to guarantee a crit via Deadly Snares.

Poison build. Hypertoxicity feat. Cyclon crossbow as above. Stacking Burrower / Blinding poison is easy enough using caltrops and bear traps. The crossbow would only really be used to splash other poisons into the mix (Cave Ear for more damage, Crawler for stun, etc), unless you didn't have time to setup caltrops / traps first. I wonder if Heartbreak poison is common enough to be worthwhile...

Elemental build. Elemental Bolts feat. Cyclon crossbow as above. The new Rusting Acid bolts seem super powerful with the feat, plus they give you a way to deal with machines. Crossbow elemental damage can crit as well, if I remember correctly.


Seems like Expedition is leaning towards bleed / poison effects, so it's good to remember that they don't break Incapacitation or Frozen effects. If you could deal enough damage with Tranquilizing bolts to actually make it work, you get a long-lasting CC effect that will probably outlast the damage over time, and hopefully the target's life.

[Karina]

Originally posted by Drokmon:

Bleed build. Vile Weaponry feat. A Zephyr / Hurricane / Tornado crossbow with super string, an AA scope and broadhead bolts. Maximum mechanical / crit damage for maximum bleed damage. Can use Kneecap Shot for a weaker bleed while draining their MP so they can't catch you as they bleed out. Maybe soften up the target first with a Leper poison bear trap so that they take more mechanical damage (and thus more bleed damage) as well as to guarantee a crit via Deadly Snares.

Poison build. Hypertoxicity feat. Cyclon crossbow as above. Stacking Burrower / Blinding poison is easy enough using caltrops and bear traps. The crossbow would only really be used to splash other poisons into the mix (Cave Ear for more damage, Crawler for stun, etc), unless you didn't have time to setup caltrops / traps first. I wonder if Heartbreak poison is common enough to be worthwhile...

Elemental build. Elemental Bolts feat. Cyclon crossbow as above. The new Rusting Acid bolts seem super powerful with the feat, plus they give you a way to deal with machines. Crossbow elemental damage can crit as well, if I remember correctly.


Seems like Expedition is leaning towards bleed / poison effects, so it's good to remember that they don't break Incapacitation or Frozen effects. If you could deal enough damage with Tranquilizing bolts to actually make it work, you get a long-lasting CC effect that will probably outlast the damage over time, and hopefully the target's life.

Im not sure how good that wouldb be. Enemy has a nasty habit of using helth hypos, thus negating damage over time. Granted bleed build has healing reduction, but crossbows are not knifes- they cannot stack vile weaponry as quickly. Also i dont think poison bolts are very common and easy to craft. I probably would take both feats though, burrower bear traps would be very cruel indeed.

[Drokmon]

Originally posted by Esteban Failsmore:

Im not sure how good that wouldb be. Enemy has a nasty habit of using helth hypos, thus negating damage over time. Granted bleed build has healing reduction, but crossbows are not knifes- they cannot stack vile weaponry as quickly. Also i dont think poison bolts are very common and easy to craft. I probably would take both feats though, burrower bear traps would be very cruel indeed.

The cure for enemy healing is overwhelming periodic damage first, Vile Weaponry second if needed. Burrower caltrops + bear traps (to reach max stacks quickly) is 350 bio damage over 5 turns with Hypertoxicity feat, and that's before the bear trap mech/bleed damage and Vile Weaponry damage buff. Add in Cave Ear poison for +50% bio damage. Add in Blinding poison (its own stacks) for even more bio damage!

I think the decision to stack bleeds or poison depends on the situation. Poison is much easier to stack quickly on multiple targets (see above). For groups, caltrops+bear traps as above, lure them in during combat. They won't use healing items until the start of the turn in which they're stuck in the bear traps, which gives you time to tag em each with a broadhead arrow. Two bleeds each (-50% or -60% healing if specced) will mitigate healing so the poison/bleed combo can finish the job.

For single targets, much easier to just stack bleeds + Kneecap Shot and kite them. Might need to lure them into a bear trap first for Deadly Snares so that the bleeds have enough power to kill them.

Junkyard vendors tend to carry a decent amount of Burrower glands, poison and poisoned bear traps, plus maybe some poison bolts. I wouldn't carry a huge number of bolts and poisoning that way is much slower. Unfortunately, it's the only way for a crossbow to stack meaningful bleeds but if played correctly, it may be all that you need.

[Serendipitous]

Being somewhat a crossbow expert, i say those tactics/builds are not very good. Both bleed and poison require you to have staying power, meaning that you need to stay alive while they take effect on the opponents, which is not what crossbow are usually good at. Not only that, they actually make main weakness of a crossbow - being bad against high mech resist even more pronounced since both broadhead and serrated bolts are incurring additional mech resist.

Poison can actually be good against enemies like burrowers - melee, slow and heavily armored, since you can easily kite them and continue to stack poison till they die, but encounters like those are few and far between. So unless you build for 10 Con 8 Str tin can crossbow, you should forget bleeding and poison except for specific situations.

Crossbows are good at suddenly killing everyone from stealth - Snipe + Aimed Shot + Special Tactics + Pneumatic Cyclon from stealth usually leads to majority of enemies being either dead or stunned (shock bolts are awesome) after your first turn. They are also good for crit builds, since they can be created with high res scope (+10% crit chance) and Monsoon has high crit chance by itself. Couple that with Recklessness, Scrutinous, seeker goggles and infused rathound leather armor with occasional focus stim and you are looking at a very damaging build with majority of shots being crits (which greatly increases power of Elemental Bolts feat and allows you to deal with high mech resist enemies)

[Drokmon]

OP asked for options with crossbows, so I offered options that can work. Some playstyles function more simply than others (stealth, Snipe, Aimed Shot, Elemental Bolts) but if we only ever wanted to play optimally, we wouldn't be looking at alternatives in the first place.

For bleed/poison build:
- Setup caltrops/bear traps out of sight of your targets, at a location where you can duck out of line-of-sight when they are trapped.
- Either use stealth to lure them in (they'll start following you upon reaching Orange detection status) or enter combat and just run into sight range and back out.
- Head back thru your trap field (use Quick Tinkering to close the gap, if needed) and duck out of sight.
- Enemies follow and get trapped. Most enemies will end their turn once trapped, allowing you to pop your head out, hit them with serrated/broadhead bolts for more bleeds, then back out of sight.
- Have flashbangs ready for when the bear trap is about to wear off but they still have bleed/poison stacks that can potentially kill them. Incapacitation doesn't break from bleed/poison damage.
- No need for high CON or heavy armour. They can't shoot what they can't see or reach.

Most of the strategy above doesn't even involve a crossbow. Crossbows just fit into it really well due to Deadly Snares and being able to deliver more bleed/poison from range and safety.

Yeah, mech res sucks. Poison works around it, so long as you can get a little bit of damage past it. Bleed works due to Deadly Snares and critical damage overpowering it. Elemental bolts would also work and they would get the job done faster. It all depends on how you want to play.

All of the crit chance feats and items are great, but since Deadly Snares exists to guarantee crits, I'll take it as an opportunity to use other feats and equipment.

[Serendipitous]

All that setup requires ridiculous amount of traps to setup and a lot of assumption about battlefield. And even when it works, it's pretty slow and grindy. And like you said, very little about it is done by crossbows. I understand deviation from optimal build for a fun playstyle, but making yourself suboptimal just to enjoy slow slugfest it's..well...a bit masochistic.

It would also require a lot of savescumming, since a slight glitch in execution (like one enemy with grenades or assault rifle getting around or moving not like oyu expected) would result in this tactics invalidated.

Bleed works due to Deadly Snares and critical damage overpowering it.

Not really, high mech resist that is also increased can lead to you just scratching a guy by 5-10 damage each time. Like i said, slugfest, boring and grindy.

All of the crit chance feats and items are great, but since Deadly Snares exists to guarantee crits, I'll take it as an opportunity to use other feats and equipment.

Only if you could put every enemy into a trap. And you just can't, not even close. I'd rather have 3/4 of my shots be crits without any condition instead of having 100% of them, but condition being hard to fulfill. My build worked in all situations, including arena, how about yours? What are you gonna do against arena enemies that are required to get through the game? What are you gonna do against tchort?

[Drokmon]

I've seen other threads by the OP for build ideas and playstyles. When met with suggestions of "you should just follow this more optimal setup", the OP commonly answered with "I've done that and I know that it works, but I'm trying to do something different here". So I ran with that.

In this case, your build is the optimal setup that can get you thru the entire game. My suggestions are suboptimal because there are lots of situations where they simply won't work on their own and we all know it. I suggested how to use them in areas where they would work. If the OP decides that it's not worth it, then it's back to the drawing board.

This game is a gem that has a massive number of options not commonly seen in other games. For some players, the fun is in trying to find creative ways to make those options work. I just don't expect them to work perfectly in every situation.

[Karina]

Originally posted by carashi:

Poison can actually be good against enemies like burrowers - melee, slow and heavily armored, since you can easily kite them and continue to stack poison till they die, but encounters like those are few and far between. So unless you build for 10 Con 8 Str tin can crossbow, you should forget bleeding and poison except for specific situations.

Tin can crossbow? Sounds intriguing.

[Karina]

Also- why use monsoon? Is 5% more crit chance worth it considering it has critical damage penalty? Its gets even worse once you get Critical Power. Cyclone or Zephyr sounds a lot better for a crit crossbow- one has more attacks (more chances to crit) and the other does huge damage when it crits.

Also also- thinking about making a sniper instead. Specifically 7.76 rapid spearhead with Strafe feat. Snipers have built in scope, you dont sacrifie a mod slot for the scope. But sniper rifles are much more straight forward and simple compared to crossbows, they dont have that many tactical options and feast.

[Serendipitous]

Yes, it is worth it, i've done calculations on that part. You can do it too if you want, Besides, instead of running after big numbers it's better to build around reliability of your crits. And with Bowmen and Sharpshooter, even with Monsoon you gonna get 150% (225% with CP) damage bonus. But i never said that you should forget about Cyclone, since having the ability to get 2 additional shock bolts in a round with adrenaline is really nice.

Sniper rifles are more powerful than crossbows, especially with W2C ammo taken into account. But crossbows have one thing on them - being silent. Crossbows are better when you want to pick enemies one by one.

[Karina]

Originally posted by carashi:

Yes, it is worth it, i've done calculations on that part. You can do it too if you want, Besides, instead of running after big numbers it's better to build around reliability of your crits. And with Bowmen and Sharpshooter, even with Monsoon you gonna get 150% (225% with CP) damage bonus. But i never said that you should forget about Cyclone, since having the ability to get 2 additional shock bolts in a round with adrenaline is really nice.

Sniper rifles are more powerful than crossbows, especially with W2C ammo taken into account. But crossbows have one thing on them - being silent. Crossbows are better when you want to pick enemies one by one.

Loudness of the weapon is an underrated mechanic. I did Depot A with two different characters recently- one used loud .44 pistol and the other used not as loud cryo pistol. Firearms guy was really struggling because his gun shots alert entire map and he gets swarmed by mutants. Chemical guy had a much easier time, he was able to engage enemies in small groups rather then entire map all at once. And because i did not alerted entire map all at once- i had the time to trap chokepoints that enemies will eventually use with bear traps.

Just checked the wiki- blob guns has the noise value of 12 and .44 caliber has noise value of 25.

[Serendipitous]

Indeed. And crossbows are absolutely noiseless, meaning that you can even kill someone when he just steps out of sights of other enemies. Meaning that with patience you can even pick small groups one by one if you want to (not always though, but still).

I wish noise was included in weapon stats as an actual number and not just on wiki.

[Karina]

Originally posted by carashi:

Indeed. And crossbows are absolutely noiseless, meaning that you can even kill someone when he just steps out of sights of other enemies. Meaning that with patience you can even pick small groups one by one if you want to (not always though, but still).

I wish noise was included in weapon stats as an actual number and not just on wiki.

Also- should i even bother leveling throwing? Special bolts occupy belt slots.

[Serendipitous]

Well, i was fine without it, but we all know that this game came be made much easier with an occasional well placed frag grenade or flashbang. So, your choice.

[Karina]

Originally posted by carashi:

Well, i was fine without it, but we all know that this game came be made much easier with an occasional well placed frag grenade or flashbang. So, your choice.

Yeah, but those are also very noisy.