Having a hard time with the comat and need advice

[Dredj]

I made a character with 7 STR 6 DEX and 7 AGI and the rest at five. I'm playing as a melee character. My skills are in melee, stealth, lockpick, traps, dodge, evasion and 1 of the psi skills which sounds like it's a self-buffing skill. My feats I took heavy punch and I think opportunist.

My problem is I'm getting wrecked in combat. My main and best weapon is a knife with 7-12 damage at 12ap a swing, my fist attack is 5-7 at 10ap so it's complete crap atm.

The bandits who want to package smashed me so I checked a guice and it recommends doing the power outpost quest, so I've been in that area and powered it up. I went as far as I could south of that area and met psi beetles that I do too little damage to kill and north is the guy with the pet rathounds.

Anyway I got to level 3, I'm playing Oddity btw, and feeling like there's nothing else to do after turning on the power relay so I went back to the bandits and at level 3 they are were still tough and I tried mutliple tries fighting them, some successful with unhappy results and some where as usual I get annihilated. On the attempt I beat them on and kept for my save I got lucky crits on the hammer guy and took him down in 1 turn and took 3 turns on the SMG and used a stimpack and some rathounds came down so I retreated and let them kill the last bandit. I ran to the Doc for a free heal then went back and got jumped on zoning by the 4 rathounds, barely winning that fight so off again I run for free heal at the Doc.

So I don't know if what I'm experiencing is normal or my character is crap.

[Altos]

You're not really intended to fight the bandits at only level 3. If you've finished the outposts quest, I recommend that you turn that quest in with Tanner and then go see Big Bret and Quinton on the Agronomy level (SGS Floor 8) for three more quests that you can complete (Hopper round-up, Find Newton, and the Putrifying bolt test).

You mentioned that you didn't deal a lot of damage to the psi beetles. If you run up right next to them, they'll get frightened and might expose their squishy brains, giving you a chance to attack them for more damage.

Underrail can be really tough for the first few hours, especially for your first character. You seem like you've got the right idea with your build for the info you've provided, though, so the game should get easier for you once you have access to powerful melee feats like Crippling Strike, Expose Weakness, Vile Weaponry, Dirty Kick, Cheap Shots, Hit & Run, etc. You're going to want to get Expose Weakness, Cheap Shots, and Crippling Strike as soon as possible, probably in that order if possible. These feats will really carry you throughout the rest of the game.

In my experience, fist weapons slightly outperform knives, especially if you build your character for maximum critical chance and critical damage. Knives can be really strong if you stack bleed on all your enemies, but some enemies (robots) are outright resistant to bleeding, at which point you'll want to switch to an electroshock weapon or throw an EMP grenade.

Also, don't underestimate the power of caltrops, especially when you're fighting other melee characters. Crawler poison caltrops are very, very helpful if you can force your enemies to walk over them by covering an entire hallway or something. Traps in general are awesome, and worth investing into if you have skill points to spare (but I would upgrade your melee, psi, stealth, and crafting skills first).

If you think you want to go into the psi disciplines, I recommend Psychokinesis above the other two. The skills and feats for that discipline go hand-in-hand with a melee build, especially telekinetic punch, force emission (for fist-fighters and combat glove fighters), and the force user feat.

Hope this helps! Good luck! :)

[Ptolemy]

The early game is punishing for all characters, and doubly so for unoptimised builds. Your experience isn't unusual, don't worry. Underrail is balanced around the assumption that everyone playing it will minmax their stats, dump what they don't need down to 3, set the important stuff to 10, and take the right feats at the right times.

I would actually not recommend Oddity for beginners at all, as in my opinion it skews the game's difficulty even further against those who don't have foreknowledge of how everything works and where everything is. I would also recommend either looking around at some character build guides before you even finalise your character at the start, or if you don't want to do that (and I understand why you may not), then set the difficulty to easy, and still expect to get kicked around a bit while you experiment.

The game is extremely good but the learning curve is steep and the beginning of the game is pretty brutal. Don't let that scare you away, it is worth persisting.

[jasgdjcvr]

Originally posted by Altos:

You're not really intended to fight the bandits at only level 3. If you've finished the outposts quest, I recommend that you turn that quest in with Tanner and then go see Big Bret and Quinton on the Agronomy level (SGS Floor 8) for three more quests that you can complete (Hopper round-up, Find Newton, and the Putrifying bolt test).

You mentioned that you didn't deal a lot of damage to the psi beetles. If you run up right next to them, they'll get frightened and might expose their squishy brains, giving you a chance to attack them for more damage.

Underrail can be really tough for the first few hours, especially for your first character. You seem like you've got the right idea with your build for the info you've provided, though, so the game should get easier for you once you have access to powerful melee feats like Crippling Strike, Expose Weakness, Vile Weaponry, Dirty Kick, Cheap Shots, Hit & Run, etc. You're going to want to get Expose Weakness, Cheap Shots, and Crippling Strike as soon as possible, probably in that order if possible. These feats will really carry you throughout the rest of the game.

In my experience, fist weapons slightly outperform knives, especially if you build your character for maximum critical chance and critical damage. Knives can be really strong if you stack bleed on all your enemies, but some enemies (robots) are outright resistant to bleeding, at which point you'll want to switch to an electroshock weapon or throw an EMP grenade.

Also, don't underestimate the power of caltrops, especially when you're fighting other melee characters. Crawler poison caltrops are very, very helpful if you can force your enemies to walk over them by covering an entire hallway or something. Traps in general are awesome, and worth investing into if you have skill points to spare (but I would upgrade your melee, psi, stealth, and crafting skills first).

If you think you want to go into the psi disciplines, I recommend Psychokinesis above the other two. The skills and feats for that discipline go hand-in-hand with a melee build, especially telekinetic punch, force emission (for fist-fighters and combat glove fighters), and the force user feat.

Hope this helps! Good luck! :)

thanks

[destroyor]

I would recommend a restart because you don't have enough ability points to get both STR and DEX for a melee char. Sorry not bashing you Altos but fists vastly outclass knives so I would recommend a DEX based psi monk (fist) char.

Abilities and feats[i.imgur.com]
Psychostatic Electricity (PE) is optional and you can replace it with another feat of your choice. I usually reduce my HP below 30% for the critical chance bonus from survival instinct + focus stim + infused rathound leather armor = 74% crit chance. I like PE because it could boost the crit chance a further 5~25%.

skill point allocation[underrail.info.tm]
On level up, focus on the following: max melee every level (no exception!), max throwing and stop at 30, max dodge and stop at 40, max evasion and stealth, max traps and stop at 40, max psychokinesis and stop at 45, max metathermics and stop at 35. Use your own judgement on the other skills.

You should aim to get a pair of tabi boots ASAP as the melee AP -1 special effect is essential to your build, and remember to consume eel sandwich for the DEX +1 bonus. At the beginning of the game your only option is a knife but sometimes it's better to take the free pistol/crossbow, sell it and buy a knife with money left over. Switch to a leather combat glove when possible. Once you have access to Core City your primary weapon should be the claw (early game), and a crafted Pneumatic Bladed Infused Ancient Rathound Leather Gloves (mid ~ late game) with boxing gloves as your secondary for the dodge buff.

On psi: this is not a traditional psi monk so don't bother with force emission. You want to use premeditation for your freebie psi crowd control skills: Electrokinesis, Electrokinetic Imprint, and Cryostasis. Your WIL is too low so don't bother with thought control skill and Telekinetic Punch (TP), trust me your TP stun will be resisted when you need it the most.

You can also take a look at my in-depth FAQ, especially the game mechanics and General tips and tricks for new players sections.

[Altos]

Originally posted by destroyor:

Sorry not bashing you Altos but fists vastly outclass knives so I would recommend a DEX based psi monk (fist) char.

Lol, it's fine, I'm used to it. ;)

I am curious what makes you say that fists "vastly outclass" knives, though. Fists are certainly better overall, but with a build like this...

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGloJgVhBmECMA2RoAscQxuMjYwLSIQYIF65pnFGHDoQk6WugoCciC+iKCADkRcIKNFygB2EEnYpJPSTA4QgA

...knives can still do pretty damn well. What do you think? Did I miss anything important in that build?

And I mean no hostility, of course. Just comparing builds and opinions.

EDIT: Oh, and the CON 4 stat is just because I had an extra point and wasn't sure how to spend it. Similarly, the points in traps can be re-allocated to something else if you wish, but I was already taking Vile Weaponry, so it made sense.

[destroyor]

Well fists outclass knives because:
Fastest knife attack is 6AP@ 17 DEX for steel knives, and 15 DEX for Tichrome.
Fastest fist attack is 4AP@ 17 DEX (Lightning Punches -2, Tabi Boots -1). You probably want to aim for 5AP fist attack @ 14 DEX (13 DEX with +1 DEX from eel sandwich).

Pneumatic Gloves - every fourth attack inflicts pneumatic strike, which does insane amount of damage mid ~ late game. Knives don't have any equivalents.

Bladed Glove has a 35% chance to inflict Bleeding Wound on hit. Ripper's Glove has 3 X 25% chance to inflict bleeding.
Serrated Knife has a 25% chance to inflict a bleeding wound.
So a fist user can build up the taste for blood buff much faster than a knife user.

[Altos]

Originally posted by destroyor:

Well fists outclass knives because:
Fastest knife attack is 6AP@ 17 DEX for steel knives, and 15 DEX for Tichrome.
Fastest fist attack is 4AP@ 17 DEX (Lightning Punches -2, Tabi Boots -1). You probably want to aim for 5AP fist attack @ 14 DEX (13 DEX with +1 DEX from eel sandwich).

Pneumatic Gloves - every fourth attack inflicts pneumatic strike, which does insane amount of damage mid ~ late game. Knives don't have any equivalents.

Bladed Glove has a 35% chance to inflict Bleeding Wound on hit. Ripper's Glove has 3 X 25% chance to inflict bleeding.
Serrated Knife has a 25% chance to inflict a bleeding wound.
So a fist user can build up the taste for blood buff much faster than a knife user.

Sure, but fist users don't get access to awesome feats like Ripper, Eviscerate, and Cut-Throat which give knives all of their power. Granted, Cut-Throat is situational, but one of the best ways to start (and end) a battle if possible. And even just a stack of 5 bleed wounds provides 250% bonus damage for Eviscerate, 10x more than the 25% provided by Taste for Blood.

[destroyor]

At 50 AP knife user get 8 hits while fist user @5AP per hit get 10 hits/@4AP per hit get 12 hits.

At 70AP knife user get 11 hits while fist user get 14/17 hits.

At 90AP knife user get 15 hits while fist user get 18/22 hit.

More attack = more chance to proc buff and debuff + more chance to crit + easier to spread damage over multiple target. Taste for blood at max stack will increase your melee attack by 50%. This is a huge deal so you want max stack as fast as possible and fist users have a clear advantage here.

Pneumatic strike (PS)> Ripper, Eviscerate and Cut-Throat. To be fair Ripper is pretty good but it will cost you 2 ability points into WIL which imho is pretty damn costly. Eviscerate and Cut-Throat only work on organic targets so you are weak against robots while PS just eliminate everything (especially when it crit).

[Altos]

Originally posted by destroyor:

At 50 AP knife user get 8 hits while fist user @5AP per hit get 10 hits/@4AP per hit get 12 hits.

At 70AP knife user get 11 hits while fist user get 14/17 hits.

At 90AP knife user get 15 hits while fist user get 18/22 hit.

More attack = more chance to proc buff and debuff + more chance to crit + easier to spread damage over multiple target. Taste for blood at max stack will increase your melee attack by 50%. This is a huge deal so you want max stack as fast as possible and fist users have a clear advantage here.

Pneumatic strike (PS)> Ripper, Eviscerate and Cut-Throat. To be fair Ripper is pretty good but it will cost you 2 ability points into WIL which imho is pretty damn costly. Eviscerate and Cut-Throat only work on organic targets so you are weak against robots while PS just eliminate everything (especially when it crit).

Fair enough. I still don't think the difference is enough to say that knives are "vastly outclassed," but I suppose at this point I'm really just arguing semantics, so I concede. :P

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread. Whichever build you choose, Dredj, I hope it works out for you. :)

[Fenix-Venix]

Yo yo stop that battle diggas.

Really, I don't think we should dump on the person ready-to-go completely finished builds from start - we just diminish the joy of building your onw build with your own hands.

I think what we need to do first is to give general direction which is -
Dredj, first your priority is to determine key stat for your character.
For melee it is Str or Dex - whichever is higher.
You damage scales off from your attack skill, which in turn scales off from main attribute, which shown in description.
So you want this attribute as high as possible, or at least hgh enough to qualify for feats.

So, next thing - you need to pick your feats right at the start, and look which stats they are require, and set them - at start if you go for max attribute which mean 10 at start and +6 later.
Then, if you don't need that stat for feats you planned to take, just dump it to minimum in 3 points. Usually it is Con, Will, and Str.

All builds that were posted is not a mandatory - you can build your melee just fine without psi.
Your melee build (and any other too) can use heavy armor, or light leather armor with stealth, light armor with or without dodge\evasion, everything works and plays differently.

Bear in mind that there is consumable in the game that gives +2 to random attribute temporary, useful to boost Int for crafting, Dex for lockpicking\pickpocketing.

[Serendipitous]

Sure, but fist users don't get access to awesome feats like Ripper, Eviscerate, and Cut-Throat which give knives all of their power. Granted, Cut-Throat is situational, but one of the best ways to start (and end) a battle if possible. And even just a stack of 5 bleed wounds provides 250% bonus damage for Eviscerate, 10x more than the 25% provided by Taste for Blood.

And knife users don't get access to stuff like Combo which gives +100% damage and 20% to stun on every third hit. Also, among those 3 only Ripper is really good even with 5 Will required. Stack of 5 bleeding wounds with 25% chance of making each of them is not gonna happen unless your build is really weak. By that time your target should be dead several times over. Let's see, to get eviscerate to +100% damage you'll need to get 2 bleding wounds, and that is possible on average in 8 attacks, then your 9 attack will make +100% damage, but Combo can make every third attack like this PLUS stun chance. More than twice as often. taste for Blood applies same here, only you can generate stack more often.

Cut-Throat is VERY situational and works ONLY on humans (not any organic targets, just humans). Honestly, something like tasing the target or throwing a flashbang/frag in the room is a much stronger opening in my opinion (and one that doesn't require you to spend a feat). The concept is cool though.

The essense of fist being much better than knives is, as destroyer said, in Lightning Punches, feat that gives you -2 AP to your attack, which you can get as early as lvl 4, meaning it's in effect for 90% of your game. Considering that damage difference between knives and fist weapons is not a large one, this really pushes the fists a lot further. Also, it's much easier to acquire hig quality leather than high quality metal. With leather you can go infusing ancient rathout hide with high quality super stell and ending up with 180-190 quality leather. With metal, 160 is you ceiling and that if you want to use supersteel for your knife, which you really don't, you want either tungsten for crit damage bonus or tichrome for AP reduction, and those are VERY hard to find higher than 130. Considering this, you can actually end up creating gloves that do more base damage than knives. That us also faster by half.

Also, yes, pneumatic fist is superior than electrical damage, in many ways because it multiplies your damage, rather than adding to it.

[Serendipitous]

For melee it is Str or Dex - whichever is higher.
You damage scales off from your attack skill, which in turn scales off from main attribute, which shown in description.
So you want this attribute as high as possible, or at least hgh enough to qualify for feats.

I must add that you really should have Dex 6 and Int 5, regardless of what attribute you use as main,if you want to go melee. Expose Weakness and Cheap Shots are just that good.

Light weapons like knives and fists have their attack's AP reduced with higher Dex, so usually those build have Dex as their main. It also increases melee crit chance.

Weapons like sledgehammers usually go good with high Str.

[Dredj]

Hi again, I have the game loaded and can give full details on my charactor. Everything I said previously is correct, the details I missed are that I also have pickpocket and the psi skill I took is Thought Control. My current feats at level 3 are Heavy Punch and Opportunist as I said before but I forgot I also have Conditioning.

I'm still committed to this character as tempting it is to restart with little progress I have. I'm still aiming for a melee build but where I'll focus I don't know, I jsut have to see where the game takes me ;)

[JigPappy]

Grenades made them easier.

[Dredj]

I started again and got to where I left my first character very fast, and am now past that.

I'm now a Dex/Will hybrid, I went 3,10, 5, 3 , 3, 10 and 6. I'm level 4 now so my Dex is at 11. For Psi I went to Psychokinesis. My skills are the same except I dropped Pickpocket for Biology. My feats at level 4 are Doctor, Expertise, Opportunist and Lightning Punches.

Game is going pretty smooth now although I still made it more difficult then it needed to be by not picking up my Psi skills straight away. I didn't know the Red Pill was the only way to unlock Psi skills.