Underrail

Underrail

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Considering some crafting feats.
I am definitely playing another run when the expansion comes out, last time i played stealth crossbowman with trowing knives and want something different than that.
Thinkin about a guy with a riot shield armour and a firearm\energy pistol as his weapon of choice.. Kinda like the idea, i will be focusing on crit damage with plasma gun in late game while also using conventional pistols. Will get some throwing for grenade feats as well.
1) Should i worry about armor penalty for movement? Are feats like Armor Sloping and Nimble worth taking, or spring boots will be enough not to be severely hindered? I havent really tried heavier gear, was running with black coats 99% of the game.
2) Do feats like clothier, ballistics and gun nut give a noticeable stat difference in a long run? Or i will be better off getting something else?
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Showing 1-15 of 25 comments
Altos Sep 21, 2017 @ 2:38pm 
1.)
If you just plan on using Riot Gear with a lightweight shield and a black or antithermic overcoat, you shouldn't have to worry about Armor Penalty too much, as you'll probably be somewhere within 40% - 65% armor penalty.

With what I personally consider the best riot gear in the game (Regenerative Vest with a Super Steel Sheet as your Ballistics Panel, a Super Steel Shield, and a Black Overcoat), you'll be at 60% penalty.

Either way, Pistols are fairly precise at long range as long as you have high Perception (10+), so you won't really need to move much around the battlefield, meaning that the Penalty shouldn't harm you much. If you really feel pressed for MP, just take Adrenaline or get the Sprint feat with 6 Agility. Or you can wear boot springs, as you mentioned, but this will lower your Stealth stat, so you might want to have a pair of tabi boots, too.
Though if you want to utilize stealth at all with this character, I recommend carrying around a 2nd suit of light leather armor (or just use the Rathound Regalia) for use outside of combat, so you don't suffer the Stealth penalty.

If you decide that, for whatever reason, you want to rock a Riot Gear build that puts you over 65% armor penalty, then you'll want to consider taking Armor Sloping or Nimble. Those feats are primarily for melee fighters or SMG fighters, whose survival practically depends on their ability to get from one side of a zone to the other as fast as possible. In particular, any character who takes Lightning Punches and wants to wear more than a leather vest pretty much needs Nimble and Armor Sloping.
For a pistoleer, though, you should be fine without it. Your life is going to be hard enough just trying to kill your enemies in the first place, and you're going to need all the combat feats you can get.

2.)
As for weapon crafting feats, you are definitely going to want to take those if you're just rocking pistols. Unfortunately, all the pistol variants got nerfed hard a few patches ago, and they're still recovering. The next patch is (probably) going to buff pistols up quite a bit, especially chemical pistols, but until then pistols are weaker than most other weapons. Your best bet would be to focus all your feats and crafting components into maxing your critical hit damage and crit chance. You're basically going to want to transform your pistol into a hand-cannon or mini sniper, since you'll at best be able to attack 2 or 3 times for a plasma pistol or hammerer (smaller pistols like the Neo Luger can attack more per turn, but have less of a real impact). Also, electroshock pistols are your best friends and will make your life sooo much easier.

I recommend you take Gun Nut, Power Management, Practical Physicist, and maaaaaybe Mad Chemist (but that last one is only if you really like entangling your enemies or freezing them with cryoliquid shots). Other feats like Critical Power, Sharpshooter, Steadfast Aim, and Kneecap Shot are all musts, as well. Lot of awesome feats for pistols, and they really help to make up for the lower base damage numbers.

Also, all pistol variants have their strengths and weaknesses. I've personally found that a Smart, Rapid, 9mm Hammerer is best when there's more than 2 enemies, while an Amplified Plasma/Laser Pistol is best for one (but you'll want to be at close range). I've seen pictures of Execute on a electroshocked enemy with an Amplified Plasma Pistol doing 1000+ damage with the right combination of feats and luck, but that may have been from before the nerfs. Still, that's a lot of damage. It's definitely overkill, though, so that's best reserved for when there's only 1 really dangerous enemy, like the final boss for instance.

Lastly, don't do what I did and just assume that Plasma pistols are totally superior to Laser pistols; they're not. In many ways, Laser pistols are more versatile.

Sorry for all the text. Hope this all helps! Good luck! :)
Josip Broz Tito Sep 21, 2017 @ 2:53pm 
I thought about getting more dexterity for ap reduction, not higher perception. But i might rethink that strategy.
Serendipitous Sep 21, 2017 @ 4:18pm 
With what I personally consider the best riot gear in the game (Regenerative Vest with a Super Steel Sheet as your Ballistics Panel, a Super Steel Shield, and a Black Overcoat), you'll be at 60% penalty.

Why black overcoat? I mean if we are talking about 60% penalty, wouldn't something like literally anything else for an overcoat be better? Especially if you want to carry second suit for stwalth anyway, by your advice.

I recommend you take Gun Nut, Power Management, Practical Physicist, and maaaaaybe Mad Chemist (but that last one is only if you really like entangling your enemies or freezing them with cryoliquid shots).

Among those i say that the only must is Practical Physicist (and even that is skippable) if you want to use energy pistols. Other are more of a quality of life thing.

Practical Physicist > Gun Nut > lots of other stuff > Power Management, i say)
Serendipitous Sep 21, 2017 @ 4:23pm 
I've seen pictures of Execute on a electroshocked enemy with an Amplified Plasma Pistol doing 1000+ damage with the right combination of feats and luck, but that may have been from before the nerfs.

You don't need execute. 110-120 quality Amplifier + Sharpshooter + Practical Physicist + Critical power and you are looking at 700+% critical damage. Add to that Smart goggles and you can do 1000+ damage from Aimed Shot only.
Last edited by Serendipitous; Sep 21, 2017 @ 4:28pm
Ptolemy Sep 21, 2017 @ 6:19pm 
Originally posted by Altos:
You'll at best be able to attack 2 or 3 times for a plasma pistol or hammerer.

2 shots with a plasma pistol, yes, but with a rapid .44 Hammerer you can fire 6 shots per turn with 14+1 DEX using Rapid Fire, which lets you spread a lot more damage around and makes pistol builds at least somewhat passable.

Originally posted by carashi:
Practical Physicist > Gun Nut > lots of other stuff > Power Management, i say)

Power Management isn't just for energy weapons and it's not just a quality of life feat, it also lets you create obnoxiously strong shields. I would put it at the top of the list, not the bottom.
Altos Sep 21, 2017 @ 7:52pm 
Originally posted by Josip Broz Tito:
I thought about getting more dexterity for ap reduction, not higher perception. But i might rethink that strategy.

Dex is certainly better for damage output in situations where precision is not an issue. As it is, simply leveling up your guns skill will give you high precision at close enough range. The Perception is nice for characters that have lessened mobility, like those in Riot Gear + Shield or Heavy Armor, or where there's just a natural gap between you and your enemy. If you don't mind missing your shots every once in a while (you'll be firing more often with DEX, so it's probably worth it), then by all means up your Dextirity more than Perception. I don't want to tell you how to play your build, because I freely admit that I am NOT the best pistoleer in the world, as you can probably tell.

Originally posted by carashi:
Why black overcoat? I mean if we are talking about 60% penalty, wouldn't something like literally anything else for an overcoat be better? Especially if you want to carry second suit for stwalth anyway, by your advice.

That's just personal preference, really. The blast and kevlar coats add 10 and 15 Armor Penalty, respectively, which is a little bit too much for my liking, while the antithermic vest... well, you got me on that one. Just because I recommend bringing a 2nd set of armor for stealth doesn't mean that I don't find it annoying having to switch between the two all the time! :P
But, yeah, that's just personal preference.

Originally posted by carashi:
I've seen pictures of Execute on a electroshocked enemy with an Amplified Plasma Pistol doing 1000+ damage with the right combination of feats and luck, but that may have been from before the nerfs.

You don't need execute. 110-120 quality Amplifier + Sharpshooter + Practical Physicist + Critical power and you are looking at 700+% critical damage. Add to that Smart goggles and you can do 1000+ damage from Aimed Shot only.

Even better! :)

Originally posted by Ptolemy:
Originally posted by Altos:
You'll at best be able to attack 2 or 3 times for a plasma pistol or hammerer.

2 shots with a plasma pistol, yes, but with a rapid .44 Hammerer you can fire 6 shots per turn with 14+1 DEX using Rapid Fire, which lets you spread a lot more damage around and makes pistol builds at least somewhat passable.

D'oh! I always forget about Rapid Fire. I didn't take it in my pistol run for some reason, so I always forget it exists. Good to know!
Serendipitous Sep 21, 2017 @ 8:11pm 
Rapid fire doesn't let you spread damage around. Remember that all those 3 shots will be targeted at one person. So it'll let you spread damage between 4 person max with rapid hammerer. With laser pistol + Point Shot you'll be able to spread damage between 3-4 people too. And don't forget that mechanical resist is one that is most common, so you'll always have to rely on having decent suply of W2C ammo, while energy weapon uses batteries that are much more common. Granted lack of W2C can be a deadly issue only in DC where is a limited supply of those and almost everything has high mech resist, but even before it can be a bother.

If you crafted your energy pistols right and go critical route, your overall DPR (AND Kill per round) would be higher than regular pistols.
Serendipitous Sep 21, 2017 @ 8:23pm 
Power Management isn't just for energy weapons and it's not just a quality of life feat, it also lets you create obnoxiously strong shields. I would put it at the top of the list, not the bottom.

I know all of that. And it still is just a quality of life. Because at best it let's you conserve small amount of AP over combat and make your shield last about 1 round longer. It's purely defensive measure and one that will not come around for every combat. Offensive in game like Underrail is always better than defensive and by a large margin. Dead enemy will not hurt you and difference between enemy with 100% and 10% health in terms of deadliness is nonexistent. So, having the ability to bring enemy's health to 0 is better than ability to bring it to 10% but having slightly better defense. Underrail is a very deadly game, so even one more enemy can be the death of you even if you have good shield.

And let's remember that even best shield has a lot of limitations, especially in regard of medium and lower speed weapons. Crossbow Aimed Shot will care very little about your shield. And Aimed shot from sniper rifle or energy weapon can take a good chunk even from the best shield.

And that's why Power management is a nice to have feat, but only if you have nothing else to take and should never be taken ahead of something that let's you actually kill things better.
Ptolemy Sep 21, 2017 @ 11:26pm 
Originally posted by carashi:
Rapid fire doesn't let you spread damage around. Remember that all those 3 shots will be targeted at one person. So it'll let you spread damage between 4 person max with rapid hammerer. With laser pistol + Point Shot you'll be able to spread damage between 3-4 people too. And don't forget that mechanical resist is one that is most common, so you'll always have to rely on having decent suply of W2C ammo, while energy weapon uses batteries that are much more common. Granted lack of W2C can be a deadly issue only in DC where is a limited supply of those and almost everything has high mech resist, but even before it can be a bother.

Okay then, let's say we take Rapid Fire out of the equation (it's really only there for obliterating large targets, anyway). With a laser pistol and Point Shot, at DEX 15 using adrenaline, you get 5 shots per turn. With a rapid .44 Hammerer, Point Shot and Gunslinger, at DEX 15 using adrenaline, you get... 5 shots per turn. The .44 has more than 4x the max damage of the laser, it has a higher critical chance than the laser with Steadfast Aim because its base AP cost is higher, and its critical damage averages higher despite having less than half the laser's critical damage bonus, because its max damage is in a completely different league. W2C is trivial to stock, especially now that you can craft it.

Sorry, but laser pistols are trash. Plasma pistols are alright for spending far too much AP overkilling enemies with Aimed Shots, if you left your electroshock pistol at home.

Originally posted by carashi:
I know all of that. And it still is just a quality of life. Because at best it let's you conserve small amount of AP over combat and make your shield last about 1 round longer. It's purely defensive measure and one that will not come around for every combat. Offensive in game like Underrail is always better than defensive and by a large margin. Dead enemy will not hurt you and difference between enemy with 100% and 10% health in terms of deadliness is nonexistent. So, having the ability to bring enemy's health to 0 is better than ability to bring it to 10% but having slightly better defense. Underrail is a very deadly game, so even one more enemy can be the death of you even if you have good shield.

If it affects anything other than convenience it isn't quality of life, and 35% higher charge on a shield can last quite a bit longer than a single turn. It's not an insignificant figure. You can quite easily get shields with a capacity over 1800 using Power Management.
Last edited by Ptolemy; Sep 22, 2017 @ 3:35am
Ptolemy Sep 22, 2017 @ 12:12am 
I understand you might suspect I'm just pulling all of those figures out of thin air and being overly combative when I say the laser pistol is useless, so here's a side by side comparison of the offensive damage stats for a smart rapid .44 Hammerer and an amplified laser pistol. All components in the weapons used were QL130, effective Guns skill was 203.

https://i.imgur.com/wfReN5S.png

I don't want to post a million links, but you see how much higher the critical damage bonus is on the laser pistol than on the .44? Well in spite of that, against the same target, over 20 shots, the laser averaged 372 critical damage and the .44 averaged 405. And those were regular criticals, meaning the only advantage the .44 had was its magnitudes-higher max damage. With smart goggles and Aimed Shot, the figures changed to 529 average critical damage for the laser and 928 for the .44. There is literally nothing the laser pistol excels at.
While energy pistols have a lower damage output than a .44 Hammerer, they make up for it with the fact that not a lot of enemies are energy resistant aside from energy shields and some robots. Of course W2C rounds or Explosive rounds could still be used on enemies with high mechanical resistance.

Also how is your laser pistol damage so high, or is that a plasma pistol in https://i.imgur.com/wfReN5S.png ?
Last edited by I Have Yet To Earn My Name; Sep 22, 2017 @ 7:02am
Serendipitous Sep 22, 2017 @ 8:14am 
Also how is your laser pistol damage so high, or is that a plasma pistol in

He is high level. You weapon skill increases both your precision and damage output. In the stats you weapon damage is showed already increased according to your skill.

Also, yes, mech resist and threshold are important factor in the final damage per round calculations. That slight 5% accuracy boost from laser pistol is there too.

If it affects anything other than convenience it isn't quality of life, and 35% higher charge on a shield can last quite a bit longer than a single turn. It's not an insignificant figure. You can quite easily get shields with a capacity over 1800 using Power Management.

If by "easily" you mean "at the lvl 20+ with highest level components that you need to hunt for a long time and some of them you can get only in DC if you are lucky" then yes, easily)

And yes it is possible to make it last 2 additional turns and not 1, though against the opponents that you want to use your shield for, it's rarely so. And even if it was the case, it's still purely defensive measure that you can't realy on alone and only as a supplement to your main defense (either skills or armor), and it's not effective against a lot of opponents. That is why it has a very low priority. 16+ level is where you should take it optimally, if at all.
Last edited by Serendipitous; Sep 22, 2017 @ 11:25am
Josip Broz Tito Sep 22, 2017 @ 11:44am 
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGloJgVhGEYCcIDMKQDY0HYR2TAFhnDFK1QQA5YDd9S956THSXmHccIIQJVk1AnAy8sYmFhyVUlJAlAI4QA

Thinking about this sort of schizo build. Subject to change, but the main course is set.
Ptolemy Sep 22, 2017 @ 1:05pm 
Originally posted by I Have Yet To Earn My Name:
While energy pistols have a lower damage output than a .44 Hammerer, they make up for it with the fact that not a lot of enemies are energy resistant aside from energy shields and some robots.

No, they don't. The existence of W2C rounds makes damage type largely irrelevant. Honestly, you would have to be extremely dedicated to using energy weapons to not be able to see how inferior laser pistols are to firearms. I've personally tried very hard to make dedicated energy weapon users viable, but that's the unavoidable conclusion you reach when you examine the figures.

Originally posted by carashi:
If by "easily" you mean "at the lvl 20+ with highest level components that you need to hunt for a long time and some of them you can get only in DC if you are lucky" then yes, easily)

By "easily" I mean using QL120-130 components that you should have access to by the end of the midgame, before you go to the Institute. They're store-buyable at this point in the game. If you don't think defense is important in the game then I don't know what to tell you. Pistols are mediocre in general compared to most builds, and I don't know how many times I've had to lean on my shields to survive with my various pistol users.

Originally posted by Josip Broz Tito:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGloJgVhGEYCcIDMKQDY0HYR2TAFhnDFK1QQA5YDd9S956THSXmHccIIQJVk1AnAy8sYmFhyVUlJAlAI4QA

Thinking about this sort of schizo build. Subject to change, but the main course is set.

You can't actually reach 19 DEX. The maximum you can set it to at the beginning of the game is 10 and you only get another 6 points to distribute as you level up.
Last edited by Ptolemy; Sep 22, 2017 @ 1:16pm
Serendipitous Sep 22, 2017 @ 1:12pm 
You can't have Dex at 19. Any attribute at the start maxes out to 10, so the maximum possible at 24 lvl is 16.

6 Per is a bad thing for any ranged weapon user. 8-10 is something you should aim for. 10 is preferable for Sharpshooter.

Don't take Execute, it's a very bad feat. It's works only from close distance and only after you stunned the target. And with a 5 turn cooldown. It's like Cut-Throat - looks cools. but in practice not very useful.

If oyu go for critical rotue then not taking Recklessness is just plain reckless. So is having 5 str but not taking 6 str for Steadfast Aim.

And the heck do you need that much pickpoketing for? You not gonna find anything worth those skill point invested. With maxed out Dex at 16, 40-50 is the max investment that is really worth it (and only because you can steal some good oddities with it)
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Date Posted: Sep 21, 2017 @ 1:52pm
Posts: 25