Questions about unarmed builds

[Halfshell]

I looked over at the "In depth FAQ" guide which listed a few links for unarmed builds. This was the most useful one http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=2785.msg14507#msg14507 , but there was another with the Dex build tweeked for Psi. Anyways, within that thread I'm not understanding why 1 is called a a Dex build and the other a Strength build when the "Str build" only has 3 less Dex than the so called "Dex build". The Dex build has 10 Constitution along with Thick Skull. The thread says "You don't have enough base abilities to max both dex or str because you still need points for agi, wil, con, etc. So now it's your choice - str or dex melee, pick one." but isn't just that the Str build goes for a glass cannon approach where as the Dex build actually builds Con? Its more accurate to call the Dex build a crit build imo.

Basically my question boils down to: Are Str builds that can actually take a hit just non viable for unarmed? The only real difference is that the Str build goes for a few extra Str related feats and Armor Sloping. Another thing is that the Dex build stays at 30% HP for bonus crit chance. So I guess the real question is: Are unarmed builds that can take a hit just non viable period? I don't like the glass cannon approach for these types of games, especially for melee builds.

[destroyor]

Short version: STR+CON unarmed build is viable, but you will need to put in a lot of effort and expect a harder game.

Long version - wall of text warning:
There's actually quite a few differences between the two STR and DEX builds. If you scroll up the Underrail forum thread you'll see I linked to Wildan's original post: http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=2364.msg13523#msg13523. I'm going to quote him below:

Originally posted by Wildan:

Since Combo was nerfed I was neglecting it but I got a new idea for a build around that feat which abuses the Combo mechanics:
Quote

If you land three consecutive damage dealing unarmed or fist weapon attacks against a single target in a single turn, the third attack will deal 100% bonus damage and have 20% chance to stun the target for 1 turn.


Now this is the idea: On a STR based build metal gloves and the Power Fist give most bang for the buck because of huge STR bonus (it's even better then for sledgehammers), but metal gloves are slow and this penalizes all mechanics that need punch spamming (Combo, Cheap Shots, Wrestling, Taste for Blood, Bone Breaker).
So what if one would wield metal gloves in one slot and bare fists in the other and make best of both paths? Let's say you take 10 DEX (which is a sweetspot for this build) then together with Lightning Punches and tabbis you'll hit for 5 AP with bare fists and 10 AP with the metal gloves. As you can see those numbers fit so well withing any AP pool.

With 50 AP you have these possibilities:
a.) 10 times with the bare fists which is too weak.
b.) 5 times with metal gloves which is good damage but too few hits.
c.) 4 times with bare fists and 3 times with metal gloves which gives best damage with most hits: 5+5+10+5+5+10+10=50

The combo would look like this: Two hits with bare fists and third always with the metal gloves. This way you make sure that on every third hit you get 100% bonus weapon damage on the strong gloves (besides the stun chance), so by replacing first metal glove punch with two regular hits you don't lose any damage. You actually gain alot because those two bare fist hits can be seen as free damage which is actually pretty good with 15-16 STR, Force Emission and Corporal Projection (Telekinetic damage +5% for each point of strength above 5). 7 vs 5 hits also makes a better chance to proc the buffs/debuffs/abilities I mentioned above. Even Bone Breaker becomes worthwhile because there is a pretty good chance for it to proc on one or both hits before metal gloves. VS extremly tough opponents like some bosses you could focus on buff debuf first: 8 hits with bare fists and final hit with metal (Combo damage applies) you're very likely to score good TfB, Wrestling, Bone Breaker, stun buffs/debuffs.

His STR build will use a metal glove/powerfist + bare fist with a bladed metal armor for bleeding. Its goal is to maximize the STR damage bonus + abuse combo mechanic. Due to way combo works you should expect to spend 20AP per kill, meaning a 3 kills per turn with adrenaline. His build will occasionally perform a pneumatic strike (every fourth hit w/ powerfist) but will not rely on it. You only need 10 DEX so you can even reduce your DEX to 9, use eel sandwich and pump the extra point to STR. You gain the full benefit of this build right of the bat at level 1.

My DEX build will use a leather combat glove and infused rathound leather armor. The goal here is to maximize critical chance + abuse pneumatic strike. In an ideal situation the first three hits (5+5+5<-combo damage bonus= 15AP) will get you a kill, pneumatic strike should get you another kill (5AP), meaning a 6 kills per turn with adrenaline. So again in an ideal situation it's possible to end a fight against a squad of enemies within 1 turn. However you need 14 dex for this, so you will gain the full benefit of this build at level 12, with the use of eel sandwich.

Yes, they are both stealthy glass cannon that will end a fight within 1 ~ 2 turns. Yes the "Str build" only has 3 less Dex than the so called "Dex build"; I just called them as such for convenience so you can call them whatever you want.


Now if you want a tanky unarmed build it's certainly possible, just modify Wildan's STR build so your abilities might look something like: 13/9/6/9/3/3/3 or 12/9/6/10/3/3/3 for thick skull. Another option is to completely dump DEX but with metal gloves attacking at 16AP per punch and leather gloves attacking at 12AP per punch it won't go well for you. No matter how you tweak a STR+CON unarmed build you will do less damage (compare to glass cannon version) due to the lower STR and have weaker gear (or same gear at a later level) due to the lower INT. Sure you are tanky now but the problem is a longer fight = more chance for the enemies to hurt and/or stunlock you.

[Halfshell]

Thank you for explaining the two builds. I don't like builds that try to end fights in 1 turn. I like to have more options and give the enemies a chance to fight back. So I'll give the tanky build a shot (probably not for first playthrough, I'll likely go for it with second playthrough), I'll probably modify the feats a little bit too. That reduces int to 3 so I assume I should give up crafting? Any recommendations for where to put the crafting points into?

Edit: I could dump Lockpicking and Hacking to get roughly equal crafting scores with 60 points remaining to boot.

[destroyor]

You don't need to give up crafting, just use junkyard surprise for INT+2 buff and workbenches.

With INT at 3 you won't be able to get armor sloping, so metal armor + taste for blood is out of the question. You should put point into electronics, tailoring and at least 32 effective mechanics.

[Halfshell]

Yeah I'll miss out on cheap shots, premeditation, expose weakness and armor sloping. It lets me pick up heavy punch, which should synergyze well with combo and it uses my spare 10 ap. Along with a few tanky perks. I'm wondering if grenadier is worth picking up. Taste for blood is just 50 melee by the way, so I can still get that.

[destroyor]

I didn't think this through - combo is vital for an unarmed build and need 8 DEX. You can't afford to dump DEX.

You can't afford to lose expose weakness (heavy punch won't be adequate) so you can't dump INT either - so now it's more like 11/9/6/9/3/3/5. If you are using power fist you won't have any way to proc bleeding so taste for blood is useless to you. Remember you need to be at armor penalty below 20% to qualify for lightning punch, which is impossible without armor sloping for a bladed metal armor.

The more I think about it the more I'm convince this unoptimized build will not be a pleasant experience. If you still want to go ahead with it I would suggest playing on easy or normal.

[Halfshell]

I think I can still make it work. I'm convinced this will have to be a second playthrough though, as I don't know enough about the mechanics yet to cut things out. Perhaps 9 con is too high, maybe con at 8 or 7 would make it a bit easier to fit everything in. So 12 9 6 7 3 3 6 only loses 51 Hp and last stand (which looks bad anyways). This is 30% less damage from power fist and 15% from corporeal projection for an extra 102 HP (compared to original build). I think 1 int does more than 1 str as taste for blood should give us more than 10~15% damage. Btw is damage multiplicitive or additive in this? Does combo + heavy punch deal 360% damage or 280% damage? If its multplicative getting a combo + 4th power fist hit + heavy punch would do stupid high damage.

Edit: Wasn't looking at it on hard. Thats 51 HP less for 2 less con and 102 more HP than original build. Fixed now.

[destroyor]

No idea if it's multiplicative or additive.
If you take psi empathy you'll lose 25% health.
If you are using power fist you don't have any way to cause bleeding effect on enemies so taste for blood is useless.

[Halfshell]

Well going from 5 int to 6 lets us take armor sloping to get bladed armor and less than 20% armor penalty. Unless I misunderstood something?

[destroyor]

Sorry missed that part - yes you are correct.

[Halfshell]

Before I say anything more here, I wanted to say thanks again for answering my questions on the str based unarmed build! I learned alot about unarmed through this. I'm going to give this build a go when I have time, but I was thinking about another build (warning, lots of text):

I searched extensively and I haven't seen anything on a str, will unarmed psi build. Basis of the idea is to have high str for corporeal projection to give a large damage bonus to psi skills. We want at least 7 will for force user for two double damage telekinetic punches with telekinetic proxy. With 15 str these will do another 50% damage. For 1 more will we can get psionic mania to make these crit. We also have the option to make a tank with stoicism, but we'll have to cut out int for that. Or lower our str. Current thoughts are either 15, 3, 6, 3, 10, 6 or 15, 3, 6, 8, 8, 3 for a tankier build. I like the latter as we don't get as much benefit from taste for blood (and we also don't care as much for lower than 20% armor penalty) since we have no dex. But the latter also loses us expose weakness.. so maybe 13, 3, 6, 8, 8, 5 would give better damage for a tankier build. Unsure if expose weakness is needed if we have psi damage.

Downsides are no combo, no lightning punches so our powerfist is going to be hitting for 16 (15 with tabi), thats not too much of a loss if I'm being honest here. Powerfist gets a 250% hit built in, although it takes thrice as long to set up. Combo is 20 ap per combo (with str, dex build), powerfist is 60 for 4th hit but each hit is going to hit alot harder so the damage shouldn't be that much worse. Average fight is likely to be a few hits and a telekinetic punch, second turn we'll get a 4th powerfist hit. Its possible that force emission will scale with the 250% hit, either way force emission will be doing a bit more damage with our higher will but likely the dex, will based unarmed psi fighter will get more mileage out of force emission simply because of 5 ap attacks.

One question is if getting 50% bonus damage to psi damage is worth doing less overall damage with melee. Another thing I'm unsure about is how psi abilities scale. I can't find anywhere that lists any damage formulas for psi abilities. Going from 3 to 10 will seems to give around 66% more skill, I assume that translates into 66% more damage. So over 100% with 15 str and corporeal projection, maybe even a 150% increase if its multiplicitive.

I won't be looking into this build much more until I've done the tankier str unarmed build, as I don't have alot of play experience with unarmed right now. I'll give this a go after the str playthrough and respond to this thread with how it goes (likely will be a few months)!

[Gabbek]

I haven't played the game in months, but I just wanted to share that I've run dex psi fist fighter the last time I've played and it was really great. Haven't finished the game, but I was 20+ level. Waiting for expansion to play once again :)