Leveling up

[Redless]

I will start by saying that most everything in this game seems to be really meticulously designed, and it's super rare and happy IMO to have a game designed AND executed this well, extremely solid job.

However, I am baffled by the decision to make weapons level up and level down. I am not a super good player. I imagine that if I was I would start by seeing the weapon level max out after a minute or two of play on a level, and then it's like, there's no point in having level ups, since things will just stay max level.

As an OK player I often see my weapons lose the exp as I am knocked down. When that happens I feel it's really sad, and inconvenient to have a weaker weapon. But I know that it is simply a punishment for being knocked down, it's important to have dis-incentives for that so the player will try to avoid taking damage.

But my concern is: adding an entire system for levelling up weapons and then losing exp when being knocked down seems to be a really complex and convoluted way to punish players for being knocked down.

Am I missing something?

[Sycle]

You're right for the most part, but I'll try to explain my reasoning a little!

Weapons levelling up is primarily a reward for staying alive, as losing your level is a punishment for knockdowns. Stronger players receive a harsher penalty than weaker players, as there's no need to kick people when they're down.

To level up your weapon you have to collect white orbs. Unlike batteries, which we expect you to fling yourself into danger to retrieve, they are an optional reward. Yes they'll make your gun more powerful, but if you hang back you can always get a few more later. It adds a degree of strategy, do you want to risk getting close to suck up a few more to see if you can hit your second weapon rank early, or play it safe? This stuff starts to matter once you start pushing the envelope and adds 'texture' to gameplay. Weapon levels are distinct steps to encourage this - we didn't want a gradual increase, but solid noticeable "okay now you're more powerful" moments.

Then there's the relationship between the primary and the secondary weapon - your secondary weapon is much stronger than your level one primary weapon, but once you max out your primary, it's a little bit more ambiguous - the secondary still has uses, but it becomes situational instead of a simple damage delta, and that weapon switch time becomes a bit more of a liability. It's true that strong players are going to max their weapon and keep it for the whole stage, but they still have that initial power climb, the need to collect enough orbs to stop the power draining away, and then they get the interesting interplay between the role of the two weapons, so I feel they still get something from it.

[Memph]

The general gist is: the better you do, the easier it is.

There's only a couple stages of weapon power and hoovering up gems will keep your weapon powered-up, as it will slowly deplete with time. Yes, it sucks when you get knocked down and lose it all, but it's not much trouble to get it back up a level, by grabbing more gems, looking out for the right power-ups and utilising your secondary weapon effectively.

It's due to the game being designed primarily for scoring, as opposed to a continually more difficult adventure, or rogue-like where power-ups are kept continuous for later, more challenging levels balanced accordingly. Stages here are (for the most part) tuned to wind-up gradually as you play - getting more and more chaotic and frantic - which is easier to handle once you get better at staying alive for longer. Start off well and you're far more likely to end well. It's keeping that momentum balanced and going that provides much of the flow of play.

I know the music is freaking amazeballs, but try turning it down a couple notches and listen out for your Android to announce when her weapon is powered. They'll say 'Powered-up, or 'Weapon max!'. Remember gems only recharge lost weapon power and do nothing at max power - but power will still slowly deplete with time. Hitting max doesn't mean you never need gems again that level.

When you take damage, there will be an alarm beeping. The faster and louder the beeps, the closer to death you are. When you do hear it, that's your cue to back off and let your shield recharge.

I do have major frustration issues with the game's severely un-fun and finnicky S+ rank system, hinging entirely on the chain-timer. Still though, getting though a level without getting knocked down is very, very doable with a reasonable amount of practice and as you improve at avoiding damage, you'll see the screen get cleared of enemies faster as you remain powered-up and swimming in power-up orbs.

Until S+ ranks become a target, weapon power really isn't much a problem at all, as you can still get up and one-shot almost everything with a secondary, grab a firepower orb, or play it safe before going back on the offensive. Full weapon power is only a mere couple seconds difference in damage dealt to a single large target anyway, and absolutely never the case that any Android is just useless when not powered-up.

Yellow speed-up orbs can also be a great help for keeping your weapon maxed remember, as they pull all gems towards you.

You'll get the hang of it man. Practice those weapon switch dodges and listen out for those sound indicators ;)



edit: and dev beat me to reply. listen to them, innit. though i've typed all this now so... :p
and i've just realised i'm giving gaming advice to someone with 100% in, of all things, Spelunky. now prostrating as am not worthy.

[Pretentieux]

The only way to play is with pro mode (auto-restart on loss of S+) enabled, in which case you never have to worry about your weapons levelling down. :)

[Memph]

Originally posted by Pretentieux™:

The only way to play is with pro mode (auto-restart on loss of S+) enabled, in which case you never have to worry about your weapons levelling down. :)

I really had to turn that off. Was getting so frustrated by the constant restarting and instant failing. Even just having the indicator shatter out of nowhere was so infuriating, I had to stop playing or suffer an aneurysm. Double-miffed 'cos quitting Cactus is like going cold-turkey off crystal, but playing it was guaranteed to result in me getting really, really, fed-up and angry with it.

Thusly, no UI is by far the more enjoyable way to play, without the incessant inturruptions of a vindictive mini-time-limit on everything you do.

I dislike Hotline Miami or Meatboyesque 'fail your way to victory' mechanics and felt it bitterly unfair how the game devolved into that, more so as it wasn't really built to lessen the frustrations of it. At least in those, you always know exactly where you went wrong, with checkpoints to cushion the blow, but this has an extremely strict, player limiting imposition that forces you to learn how to deal with very specific moments by being previously screwed over by them five minutes into a stage. And the way the game so beautifully builds up to frantic chaos, only serves to make the fun come down like a sack of lard, when you do suffer from one single merely unfortunate moment.

The adrenaline's pumping, as you're joyously hosing down bots, dancing with death and *BAM* - failed again. Why? "Oh, some mob got stuck/shot missed/you had to dodge twice, so STOP ALL THE FUN". But game...I only..."Nope! You did it wrong. DO IT AGAIN".

There's being a cruel mistress, and just being evil. And that S+ requirement is on the Ramsay Bolton end of the bastard scale, in my book.


TL;DR: Pro-mode ruined the game for me. Should be called 'patient mode'. UI off, FTW.

[Pretentieux]

I think the difference here is the fundamental reason for why we enjoy these types of games. No harm no foul mate, as it seems AAC has something for many different sorts of players. :)

[Memph]

Originally posted by Pretentieux™:

I think the difference here is the fundamental reason for why we enjoy these types of games. No harm no foul mate, as it seems AAC has something for many different sorts of players. :)

Aye, quite. Was just a bitter end to an otherwise joyous ride for me. Turning off pro-mode and the UI altogether did alleviate much frustration with the timer, at least. I'll sadly just never have the patience to pound on those last couple stages until perfect.

[Redless]

Thanks for the explanation guys! I have even more appreciation for the game when I learn stuff like I learned in this thread <3

[Manta]

Originally posted by Vegan for Vendetta:

Thanks for the explanation guys! I have even more appreciation for the game when I learn stuff like I learned in this thread <3

Weapon level is probably the biggest concern on bosses, where the power orbs are generally much less frequent and the distance between you and the boss is often much greater. This means power draining due to not picking up orbs is a non trivial concern. In particular, Vespula often requires you snatch just one or two orbs from the swarm just to keep weapon level up, The final phases of Venom often involve power drain if you try to ignore the spiders and go for the kill.

It's tricky to notice since the only indication that power drain has started is noticing the power bar in the top left is decreasing, and the next indicator after that is seeing "POWER DOWN" over your droid when you lose a level.