Lore?

[Birdoggydog]

So I understand this game to be set in a specific game system. Presumably this system has a lore component.

Are there plans to more strongly get that lore accorss in this game? I started a game and knew practically nothing about who I was, why I was where I was, who the people areound me were, where we lived... After the first several missions the only thing I picked up is that my friends girlfriends dead, they think I killed her. I met a dwarf - what's that mean in this world? Anything? Are dwarves treated like surly parking enforcement officials? Loved? Generally ignored and thought cude?

Now I don't want to confuse Lore with Plot. I think this games Plot is pretty good so far- a tad derivative maybe, but I'm not very far in and tbh we're well past the point of caring if game plots are derivative. A solid, humerous story with the chance to be a villian. Cool.

Lore is seomthing else - lore tells me why I should care about this world turned up side down. Lore tells me that my place in this world - a wizard - is esteemed, and that I can be a snob. Lore frames my meta game whilst playing a CRPG.

I also think there are good and bad ways to get lore into users heads. Bad ways are tons of people constantly telling me everything they can about every tiny piece of history from the last 1000 years. Good ways are having characters mention recent or ancient significant events which have shaped their inter-personal relationships, their personal experience of some war, a love lost due to conflicting and famed families.

[MezzoMax]

That is a very good and valid point you make. I played The Dark Eye (Das Schwaeze Auge) as kid kid / teen. Let me say: It has a gigantic LORE behind it. It grew over many decades and there a lot of details. Different world planes, different continents, I think one which is not known in the acutal game world or just rumored (Looked it up; this continent is actual described as high fantasy). Please someone correct me here, because I am not as familiar with it as I was. Then there are real gods in the world. It is really, really rich. Necromancy, different kingdoms waging war. Elemental spirits like Djinies. Fairies and Fairy worlds. An astral plane. And much, much more.
A whole history was written for it and as far as I know every month there is a paperbound booklet with ongoing lore published. In fact the world developes right now bye the work of writers.
That said I am by far not the one best familiar with it. It's overwhelming. Perhaps that is the reason why they didn't throw the whole lore at us. Some intro about the Horras Kingdom where this takes place, would be nice though.

What I can tell from my memory. TDE is not a game world like Dragon Age or some over the top Fantasy worlds. How should I say, in my opinion it's more down-to-earth. There are for example no D&D armors with +5 to Strength or so. Magic artifacts are rare and powerful. A flaming sword for example is not a common sight. No, there could be a whole story around it. Just getting this flaming sword, activating its power. Not like for example the weapons in Skyrim, where most of them have an elemental attribute to them. I hope you get a feeling from these examples.

[dustyn.barlow]

Wiki's are a good starting point. Gives you world maps, important characters and events in said universe, etc.

[MrMuse]

I appreciate what you guys are saying regarding lore in its historical background sense. But it is clear there is a REASON you don't know what is going on with your own character at the start of this game ("I knew practically nothing about who I was where I was, who the people around me were, where we lived"). It is called a "reveal". You are meant to be somewhat confused...you are MEANT to be thinking..what's going on, who exactly am I, what have I done. The whole point of a reveal is that you learn these things as you progress (like the use of flashbacks). You say that you don't want to confuse lore and plot...but you do so in your own argument - showing that the two are perhaps inextricably linked.

My guess is..there was no wolf, you are derranged, you just killed her imagining the wolf. Clearly Lysander has some involvement - what was it and why, perhaps you were drugged when you did it, if you were then why/how, what's happened to the other girl, why is the guy who is chasing you so damned irritating, are there really dragons at all or is the dwarf just a nut job, why does the elf still sound like a druggie even when she is "straight", is the mage a spy trying to trick you or genuinely wanting to help, etc etc etc...you can't create mysteries like these if you tell the player everything from the start because more background knowledge would perhaps let you reason what exactly is happening and ruin the effect. Progress = enlightenment - the whole point of a reveal

There are few ways to include lore without compromising plot, especially at the start, especially if you are using the reveal style,..and most of them are artificial additions. Like the inclusion of history books, or worse, a story in the manual. For these reasons I have no problem with the lack of it.

[dustyn.barlow]

Originally posted by MrMuse:

I appreciate what you guys are saying regarding lore in its historical background sense. But it is clear there is a REASON you don't know what is going on with your own character at the start of this game ("I knew practically nothing about who I was where I was, who the people around me were, where we lived"). It is called a "reveal". You are meant to be somewhat confused...you are MEANT to be thinking..what's going on, who exactly am I, what have I done. The whole point of a reveal is that you learn these things as you progress (like the use of flashbacks). You say that you don't want to confuse lore and plot...but you do so in your own argument - showing that the two are perhaps inextricably linked.

My guess is..there was no wolf, you are derranged, you just killed her imagining the wolf. Clearly Lysander has some involvement - what was it and why, perhaps you were drugged when you did it, what's happened to the other girl, why is the guy who is chasing you so damned irritating, are there really dragons at all or is the dwarf just a nut job, why does the elf still sound like a druggie even when she is "straight", is the mage a spy trying to trick you or genuinely wanting to help, etc etc etc...you can't create mysteries like these if you tell the player everything from the start because more background knowledge would perhaps let you reason what exactly is happening and ruin the effect. Progress = enlightenment - the whole point of a reveal

There are few ways to include lore without compromising plot..and most of them are artificial additions. Like the inclusion of history books, or worse, a story in the manual.

You must be or were a Literature major in college, because I think your kinda over thinking the whole concept. This isn't a Literary masterpiece that your talking about. It's a game based on a paper RPG setting. The story in these sort of games (i.e. Diablo D & D, Warhammer, Forgotten Realms, etc) generally boil down to "Your main character is good but the people you kill are bad! Story? pffft Who cares I get a massive skill tree and piles of loot!" Don't mean to come off as semi condesending, we just gotta lower our standards a bit.

[MrMuse]

Diablo isnt even an RPG game (at least not in the strict sense). RPG games are stories, stories are constructed with thought. Your response to my post is not relevant. Perhaps my explanation seems stuffy..but it is a legitimate explanation of why you dont know things from the start. ARPGs tend to have more flimsy storylines because they are just tack-ons to hack n slash gameplay. There IS no overthinking in a good RPG...story is paramount. This goes for PnP games too..without imagination there is NO PnP.

[dustyn.barlow]

Loot grind fests sell better and are cheaper to make. Your looking for your version of "RPG" in the wrong area.....

[MrMuse]

this is NOT a loot grind game. You clearly have the wrong impression of it. And you clearly underestimate the complexity of making even a basic plot in a computer game. Also, the whole point of this game and its title is that it is NOT simply a case of "your main character is good but the people you kill are bad". If you CHOOSE to play without thinking about the plot then that is your business. But that is not the way this game has been designed. And certainly not the way PnP generally works either.

[dustyn.barlow]

You don't have to take this so personal. Your not understanding my point. No i am not saying it is like diablo. I only compared them because they share the characteristic of being an installment in an long running fantasy setting. You were questioning why the backstory wasn't fleshed out and why the games lore was not present. I just was trying to say this isn't a big budget game, with an meaty backstory, deeply intriguing characters and a plot that will blow you out of your seat. The story feels present to get you from battle to battle, the games bread and butter. Lastly I would like to add this is just my opinion on what I see. I'm not trying to argue with you so you can just take my opinion for what it's worth or you can throw a fit on what an RPG is supposed to be.

[MrMuse]

I'm completely calm. I'm not taking it personally. I just think you are wrong (about how stories work that is - because in actuality you are saying there is no need for further lore - which was my own position. But you decided to belittle my explanation of why things are as they are and I'm sure the devs would agree with everything I said in that post). And I have nothing more to say about it.

[MezzoMax]

I think MrMuse is on to something. Considering the PLOT so far, I kind of had the same ideas. I think Naurim is kind of insane. Would be fun if we meet an actual Lindwurm (Sorry, don't know the english word for it. But it's no dragon. Kind of a big lizardy, dragonish kind of creature, but no actual dragon. Dragons are much more stronger in TDE and capable of magic. They can only fly because they use magic to do so. :-) An avarage adventure party can't kill them easily. And dragons can communicate.)
I am also sure we killed the Princess. How and why still remains a mystery. I am looking at you, Lysander!
And of course Zurbaran is some kind of spy or run away slave. (Remember the whip marks on his back when you released him? And he presumably poisened the baroness' husband.)

But I guess we get a bit sidetracked here. The OP asked for a general background of Aventuria. Myself and dustyn.barlow hinted him in the right direction. I think it would be nice to get some basic background about the region we are in, not whole Aventuria. That would be too much.

On the other hand we lern alot from dialog and on the go. For example the scene in the garden, where you can duel the Baroness' guards. You lern that duels are actual a legit way to deal with another. There are this small nods. You lern from gameplay, that magic in TDE is powerfull, but not unlimited. Astral Points regenerate very slowly during combat. You have to rest to get them back. Aventuria is more a low fantasy setting, much more medieval. I think they got that right. The look of the towns. Clothing of the people.

I also think this is a game about compelling story. Daedelic is known for good writing and story. So using this revealing technigue MrMuse mentioned makes sense. What I really like is the stroy telling through the combat maps. Every map has it's own more or less important story to it. Everyone is unique and changes how you fight.

[MrMuse]

A weaker sub-dragon is usually, but not always, called a Drake or a Wyvern.

[MezzoMax]

Originally posted by MrMuse:

A weaker sub-dragon is usually, but not always, called a Drake or a Wyvern.

Thanks for the reply. Than I guess it would be called more of a wyvern. And yeah, real dragons a freaking huge and many centuries old. Good luck killing one, Naurim. :-)

[MrMuse]

Hehe, yeah, the idea of a dwarf alone killing an actual full-grown dragon is funny - which is also part of the point (as evidenced by the fight that gets him his axe back). He is a comic aspect *edit* although even this could prove wrong eventually - maybe he will be Superdwarf.

[MezzoMax]

Or he just gets eaten by the dragon. Snap and gone. :-) Would be kind of funny if on one map a giant dragon head appears, eats Naurim and goes off. Just as that. :-) And to come back, because dwarfs don't digest that good.

Naaah, I should stop sidetracking. Back to topic!

[MrMuse]

Well, to put it simply, in my opinion they are doing a pretty good job with the story and I'm certain that will become more clear once the game is complete. Whether or not it needs more general lore is debatable on both sides of the argument. I was just attempting to explain WHY there isn't more back-story.