Secret of Mana was always bad and age made it worse.

[GrimoireA]

I'm sorry but the "SoM Vets" need a reality check.

Secret of Mana, while graphically ahead of its time and a great soundtrack too, has never been harder to play these days. There is janky, and then there is borderline unplayable. Essentially the game follows this one specific idea: Stunlock or be stunlocked. There is no balance between. It encourages you to use cheese strats to conquer the harder enemies who will overwhelm you if you try to play normally. The only reason you like the game today is because either,

A: Less games around back then so you had to make due and just accepted whatever you saw and cling to the idea it was peak.

B: You played co-op and the idea of an action rpg with another human being is way more fun than playing with a A.I controlled character (I felt this way when I got into the tales of games)

C: Stockholm Syndrome.

Trials of Mana, or Seiken Densetsu 3 was always the superior game, however it is not your fault for realizing sooner since the game was never released outside of J.P. While it too was janky and buggy it does almost everything better than Secret of Mana, I say almost because the only thing I like about SoM is that characters can equip different weapons. Regardless, once options because available or you waited until the collection of mana released people got to finally experience how amazing Trials of Mana truly was, and it carried over to the 2020 remake.

You pretenders can try to deny this, but this 'imaginative' world where Visions of Mana will never live up to Secret of Mana is built on a foundation of delusions. Whether or not VoM is good we'll see later this month, but frankly considering how terrible Secret of Mana truly is I'd say that's a low bar to cross. The truly impassable bar is Trials of Mana.

Edit: Liking Secret of Mana is fine despite its flaws. The main thing I wanted to drive home are the people who call themselves 'hardcore mana fans' are SoM exclusive fans that will try to compare every other game in the series to their idolized game, not realizing just how flawed it truly is.

Edit 2: Ignore Night4 he is trying to troll and derail the topic.

[xHans]

Originally posted by Amaterasu:

Originally posted by Billy Blaze:

Thousands of people: "I love this game!"
That one doofus: "You are all wrong, and here is why:"

Many people don't like Secret of Mana because we see it for what it is.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/lists/best-snes-games Here's a list without SoM on it
https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-10-greatest-super-nes-games-of-all-time Here's another.
https://www.thegamer.com/best-super-nintendosnes-games-of-all-time/ Hey look, a third.
https://retrododo.com/best-snes-games/ Here's a fourth
https://screenrant.com/best-snes-games-nintendo/ A fifth
https://www.dualshockers.com/best-super-nintendo-games/ A sixth
https://culturedvultures.com/best-snes-games/ And a seventh
https://www.vgr.com/best-snes-games/ An eighth
https://www.gamingbible.com/features/super-nintendo-top-10-games-20220408 A ninth
https://fpschampion.com/best-snes-games/ And finally a tenth.

I didn't even have to look that hard. And no, I didn't search for "Top SNES games without Secret of Mana". And the reason I didn't go for many top 25s or above is because I know that even if it hit the top 100, y'all would point at it and say, "See, it's still good enough to be remembered!" Yeah, that's what will happen when you scrape 1/7 of the entire library up to find good ones(A little less than 1/7, actually. It's 100/714).

If you put "Best snes game of all time" ♥♥♥♥ like mario and donkey kong is going to be up in the list... if you do "Best SNES RPG of all time" Secret of mana does come up. You made a convinient search bias.

[Amaterasu]

Originally posted by xHans:

Originally posted by Amaterasu:

Many people don't like Secret of Mana because we see it for what it is.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/lists/best-snes-games Here's a list without SoM on it
https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-10-greatest-super-nes-games-of-all-time Here's another.
https://www.thegamer.com/best-super-nintendosnes-games-of-all-time/ Hey look, a third.
https://retrododo.com/best-snes-games/ Here's a fourth
https://screenrant.com/best-snes-games-nintendo/ A fifth
https://www.dualshockers.com/best-super-nintendo-games/ A sixth
https://culturedvultures.com/best-snes-games/ And a seventh
https://www.vgr.com/best-snes-games/ An eighth
https://www.gamingbible.com/features/super-nintendo-top-10-games-20220408 A ninth
https://fpschampion.com/best-snes-games/ And finally a tenth.

I didn't even have to look that hard. And no, I didn't search for "Top SNES games without Secret of Mana". And the reason I didn't go for many top 25s or above is because I know that even if it hit the top 100, y'all would point at it and say, "See, it's still good enough to be remembered!" Yeah, that's what will happen when you scrape 1/7 of the entire library up to find good ones(A little less than 1/7, actually. It's 100/714).

If you put "Best snes game of all time" ♥♥♥♥ like mario and donkey kong is going to be up in the list... if you do "Best SNES RPG of all time" Secret of mana does come up. You made a convinient search bias.

I was given Top SNES games of all time. Not Top SNES RPGS... which isn't even 1/10 of the games we got over here in the US. I doubt you could make a top 25, let alone a top 50 or top 100.

Edit: There are 41 officially released English RPGs on the SNES. A top 10 is literally 25% and you've got such masterful opposition to SoM as... The Twisted Tales of Spike McFang(Which me saying this is probably the first time anyone's heard of it. It's the first I heard of it).

There are 19 with unofficial translations. And one of the games in this list of SNES RPGs is Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past. Which I'm sure we can all agree is not a RPG.

[xHans]

Originally posted by Amaterasu:

Originally posted by xHans:

If you put "Best snes game of all time" ♥♥♥♥ like mario and donkey kong is going to be up in the list... if you do "Best SNES RPG of all time" Secret of mana does come up. You made a convinient search bias.

I was given Top SNES games of all time. Not Top SNES RPGS... which isn't even 1/10 of the games we got over here in the US. I doubt you could make a top 25, let alone a top 50 or top 100.

Most games weren't even released in NA anyways. I had to play seiken densetsu 3 and star ocean english fan made rom translated. If you never liked the game it's fine... but if it was so bad no one would've really put any effort for free to translate these games into english.

[Amaterasu]

Originally posted by xHans:

Originally posted by Amaterasu:

I was given Top SNES games of all time. Not Top SNES RPGS... which isn't even 1/10 of the games we got over here in the US. I doubt you could make a top 25, let alone a top 50 or top 100.

Most games weren't even released in NA anyways. I had to play seiken densetsu 3 and star ocean english fan made rom translated. If you never liked the game it's fine... but if it was so bad no one would've really put any effort for free to translate these games into english.

Seiken Densetsu 3 is the best of the Mana series and as I've said time and time again, one of the best games on the SNES. Though I played it on the Switch. Seiken Densetsu 2 is Secret of Mana over here.

[Sintra4]

I think you're being a little dismissive toward the co-op element, and the "stunlock" argument doesn't actually hold up once you get your party members, unless for whatever reason you're not switching during combat.

[GrimoireA]

Yeah Billy Blaze is definitely a night4 alt.

Doesn't read, doesn't try to counter argue, just assumes everyone else who disagrees with them is a troll or offender.

@Sintra4

I will admit my memory is hazy as it has been time but when I did my first complete playthrough I got pretty walled. It was a boss before Salamandra I think, or maybe Gnome, I think it was a fire related boss because around that time you only have Undine and that was the way of the game teaching you about countering elements. Boss would constantly be attacking and doing more than I could heal or even retaliate. It was here when I started relying heavily on the menu exploit.

I'm not against swapping party members mid-fight cause it can lead to dopamine rushes like no other. There's a game called fortune summoners where if you take too many hits in a row your character will be stunned momentarily and if you take a hit during this it'll be severe, encouraging you to swap to another character and try to protect the stunned character until they recover.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by rareroono:

From the point of view of an action-game player, Secret of Mana is a bad game with bad frame data and hitboxes. The reason to play the game is basically RPG progression system and the story/narrative and art-style/graphics.

Seiken Densetsu 3 had long cooldowns on your normal attacks and tech/spells. It had slower paced combat more like a turn-based RPG with pseudo-action combat. I prefer the art-style in Seiken Densetsu 3.

SD3 combat was paaainfully slow. Like having your whole group Entangled the whole time.

I love turn-based games and that's actually what I mostly play. But if a game is an Action game, it may as well go all-in on that and not half-arse it.

[Billy Blaze]

Originally posted by GrimoireA:

Yeah Billy Blaze is definitely a night4 alt.

Yes.
Absolutely.
100%

And I have no clue why the same accusation happened again.
Last time it was cause this profile was set to Private, cause idiots love to argue about stuff they find on a profile.
Changing it back to open, but it still isn't enough.

"Doesn't read"
Why should I?
It's my choice, be glad I inform you before you waste even more of your time.

"Doesn't try to counter argue."
Ooooh boy, this is a battle I don't wanna fight.
Trying to argue with clowns which create a topic in order to provoke people.
Nope, not gonna happen.
Just read your ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ text again... if people wanna jump on this crashing train, ok... but I stay off of it and just informed you, that it's the wrong game.
"Secret of Mana" already has a forum on Steam, but you aren't clever enough to find it, it seems.

"just assumes everyone else who disagrees with them is a troll or offender"
I don't really call people "troll", only very rarely, but I leave this word to the weirdos who don't know how to use words anymore.


Also:

Originally posted by GrimoireA:

Originally posted by Billy Blaze:

You don't ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ say...

I can see where you're trying to go so I'll only give you one response.

That was a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ lie.


EDIT: Plus, english isn't my native language.
I doubt any "alt" could mimik my bad writing.

[Gamerdude535]

Originally posted by night4:

Originally posted by Mossy Mushroom:

No problem. I going to try the full version any way. I don't have good reason to hate this version of the game right now.

I fear for the future of gaming when such mediocrity - no - such low quality trash continues to be supported by gamers. It's ok to have some basic standards.

Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean it's actually trash.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Gamerdude535:

Originally posted by night4:

I fear for the future of gaming when such mediocrity - no - such low quality trash continues to be supported by gamers. It's ok to have some basic standards.

Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean it's actually trash.

It's objectively poorly done. Look at the endless posts about the quality of the individual elements of the demo for for verbose explainations.

If it were well-made, I'd find something to like about it, latch onto that, and find enjoyment in it.

[Sintra4]

Originally posted by GrimoireA:

Yeah Billy Blaze is definitely a night4 alt.

Doesn't read, doesn't try to counter argue, just assumes everyone else who disagrees with them is a troll or offender.

@Sintra4

I will admit my memory is hazy as it has been time but when I did my first complete playthrough I got pretty walled. It was a boss before Salamandra I think, or maybe Gnome, I think it was a fire related boss because around that time you only have Undine and that was the way of the game teaching you about countering elements. Boss would constantly be attacking and doing more than I could heal or even retaliate. It was here when I started relying heavily on the menu exploit.

I'm not against swapping party members mid-fight cause it can lead to dopamine rushes like no other. There's a game called fortune summoners where if you take too many hits in a row your character will be stunned momentarily and if you take a hit during this it'll be severe, encouraging you to swap to another character and try to protect the stunned character until they recover.

Bosses in SoM are quite the mixed bag for me, too. I'm actually really glad you brought this up, since I had a longer comment written that addresses the point I'm about to make here, but I wasn't sure if there was enough interest before.

The game is balanced around you leveling up the Sprite and the Girl's magic skills every time they get a new set of spells, including the very first one. How do I know that, you might ask? Square released a walkthrough alongside the original game that explicitly tells you to do this. The amount of time you need to grind is a lot shorter than most of SoM's contemporaries, as well. There's 2 problems with this, however:
1. The game doesn't tell you to do this, so the vast majority of players that don't purchase an official walkthrough alongside what was already a very expensive game when it came out experience the game a lot like you did: being numerically unable to outpace the boss' damage with your own spells, whether healing or doing damage, while being unable to damage the boss enough with melee attacks because of all the spells they cast stunlocking the entire group.
2. Even once you learn about this expectation to grind out skill levels with your magic, the boss fights are still awful, because THEY become helpless before the Sprite's overwhelming power. 30 minutes of casting Energy Absorb on basic enemies, and you're able to decimate that boss you were talking about in seconds. Is it fun? No, but it is better than the alternative, since at least it's over with quickly.

I should clarify that the advice to switch characters is more appropriate for when you're fighting groups of normal enemies, and I think doing that makes the game pretty fun for those sections, but it doesn't work on bosses since most if not all of them spam attacks that knock everyone over. Not a perfect game by any stretch, but I do think the game is really fun, and playing it in co-op turns it into a machine that constructs pleasant memories.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Sintra4:

Originally posted by GrimoireA:

Yeah Billy Blaze is definitely a night4 alt.

Doesn't read, doesn't try to counter argue, just assumes everyone else who disagrees with them is a troll or offender.

@Sintra4

I will admit my memory is hazy as it has been time but when I did my first complete playthrough I got pretty walled. It was a boss before Salamandra I think, or maybe Gnome, I think it was a fire related boss because around that time you only have Undine and that was the way of the game teaching you about countering elements. Boss would constantly be attacking and doing more than I could heal or even retaliate. It was here when I started relying heavily on the menu exploit.

I'm not against swapping party members mid-fight cause it can lead to dopamine rushes like no other. There's a game called fortune summoners where if you take too many hits in a row your character will be stunned momentarily and if you take a hit during this it'll be severe, encouraging you to swap to another character and try to protect the stunned character until they recover.

Bosses in SoM are quite the mixed bag for me, too. I'm actually really glad you brought this up, since I had a longer comment written that addresses the point I'm about to make here, but I wasn't sure if there was enough interest before.

The game is balanced around you leveling up the Sprite and the Girl's magic skills every time they get a new set of spells, including the very first one. How do I know that, you might ask? Square released a walkthrough alongside the original game that explicitly tells you to do this. The amount of time you need to grind is a lot shorter than most of SoM's contemporaries, as well. There's 2 problems with this, however:
1. The game doesn't tell you to do this, so the vast majority of players that don't purchase an official walkthrough alongside what was already a very expensive game when it came out experience the game a lot like you did: being numerically unable to outpace the boss' damage with your own spells, whether healing or doing damage, while being unable to damage the boss enough with melee attacks because of all the spells they cast stunlocking the entire group.
2. Even once you learn about this expectation to grind out skill levels with your magic, the boss fights are still awful, because THEY become helpless before the Sprite's overwhelming power. 30 minutes of casting Energy Absorb on basic enemies, and you're able to decimate that boss you were talking about in seconds. Is it fun? No, but it is better than the alternative, since at least it's over with quickly.

I should clarify that the advice to switch characters is more appropriate for when you're fighting groups of normal enemies, and I think doing that makes the game pretty fun for those sections, but it doesn't work on bosses since most if not all of them spam attacks that knock everyone over. Not a perfect game by any stretch, but I do think the game is really fun, and playing it in co-op turns it into a machine that constructs pleasant memories.

I've finished the game without any excessive magic leveling multiple times (as in: magic only used in combat as *needed*, no resting/walnut/mp absorb shenanigans for magic levels beyond that). Not only is it easily possible, but can make the game more fun depending on how you look at it.

Just saying, it's up to the player to customize their own experience a bit.

[Amaterasu]

Originally posted by night4:

Originally posted by Sintra4:

Bosses in SoM are quite the mixed bag for me, too. I'm actually really glad you brought this up, since I had a longer comment written that addresses the point I'm about to make here, but I wasn't sure if there was enough interest before.

The game is balanced around you leveling up the Sprite and the Girl's magic skills every time they get a new set of spells, including the very first one. How do I know that, you might ask? Square released a walkthrough alongside the original game that explicitly tells you to do this. The amount of time you need to grind is a lot shorter than most of SoM's contemporaries, as well. There's 2 problems with this, however:
1. The game doesn't tell you to do this, so the vast majority of players that don't purchase an official walkthrough alongside what was already a very expensive game when it came out experience the game a lot like you did: being numerically unable to outpace the boss' damage with your own spells, whether healing or doing damage, while being unable to damage the boss enough with melee attacks because of all the spells they cast stunlocking the entire group.
2. Even once you learn about this expectation to grind out skill levels with your magic, the boss fights are still awful, because THEY become helpless before the Sprite's overwhelming power. 30 minutes of casting Energy Absorb on basic enemies, and you're able to decimate that boss you were talking about in seconds. Is it fun? No, but it is better than the alternative, since at least it's over with quickly.

I should clarify that the advice to switch characters is more appropriate for when you're fighting groups of normal enemies, and I think doing that makes the game pretty fun for those sections, but it doesn't work on bosses since most if not all of them spam attacks that knock everyone over. Not a perfect game by any stretch, but I do think the game is really fun, and playing it in co-op turns it into a machine that constructs pleasant memories.

I've finished the game without any excessive magic leveling multiple times (as in: magic only used in combat as *needed*, no resting/walnut/mp absorb shenanigans for magic levels beyond that). Not only is it easily possible, but can make the game more fun depending on how you look at it.

Just saying, it's up to the player to customize their own experience a bit.

Do it with Melee only, no magic except the Mana spell at the end.

[GrimoireA]

@Sintra4

Frankly I was mixed about skills leveling based on use because it encourages grinding on weaker enemies just to stall, like in super mario rpg Mario's first skill 'jump' actually gets stronger the more you use it and its much easier to use than say, super jump which requires really good frame timing. On the other hand it also encourages you even more to use them as often can you could so long as you had the mana to afford it.

This is my problem with the co-op argument. I may or may not have mentioned this already but when I first played Tales of Symphonia I played through the whole game with two of my friends. It definitely was one of the best experiences I've had. We laughed and cracked jokes at the silly moments of the story, we played the characters we were all comfortable with and worked together, we went through trial and error trying to solve the puzzles, and when we finished the game it was one of the most satisfying play-through I've ever had.

It never got better after that. I replayed the game twice after and both times by myself. It just isn't the same. The funny parts of the story weren't as funny, the AI controlled characters were fine but definitely a far-cry from having actual people to consistently back you up and not get themselves in trouble on purpose. To be fair, unlike SoM when I fail I don't feel like its the game's fault, rather my own.

What I'm trying to say is that it is true co-op enhances a game I think its a fact that goes without saying. FF6 had co-op too though I'm sure many people don't realize that. What matters to me is the game is good enough to also be played solo as well. It is why I do not mind how the Trials of Mana remake did not have co-op and the fact that people just it solely on that fact alone drives me mad.

And if you think its unfair to compare a game like Tales of Symphonia to Secret of Mana... I 100% agree with you.

[BrianV]

'only' and 'either' in the same sentence, and then listed 3 things. what a hardcore rule breaker. a rebel.