Secret of Mana was always bad and age made it worse.

[GrimoireA]

I'm sorry but the "SoM Vets" need a reality check.

Secret of Mana, while graphically ahead of its time and a great soundtrack too, has never been harder to play these days. There is janky, and then there is borderline unplayable. Essentially the game follows this one specific idea: Stunlock or be stunlocked. There is no balance between. It encourages you to use cheese strats to conquer the harder enemies who will overwhelm you if you try to play normally. The only reason you like the game today is because either,

A: Less games around back then so you had to make due and just accepted whatever you saw and cling to the idea it was peak.

B: You played co-op and the idea of an action rpg with another human being is way more fun than playing with a A.I controlled character (I felt this way when I got into the tales of games)

C: Stockholm Syndrome.

Trials of Mana, or Seiken Densetsu 3 was always the superior game, however it is not your fault for realizing sooner since the game was never released outside of J.P. While it too was janky and buggy it does almost everything better than Secret of Mana, I say almost because the only thing I like about SoM is that characters can equip different weapons. Regardless, once options because available or you waited until the collection of mana released people got to finally experience how amazing Trials of Mana truly was, and it carried over to the 2020 remake.

You pretenders can try to deny this, but this 'imaginative' world where Visions of Mana will never live up to Secret of Mana is built on a foundation of delusions. Whether or not VoM is good we'll see later this month, but frankly considering how terrible Secret of Mana truly is I'd say that's a low bar to cross. The truly impassable bar is Trials of Mana.

Edit: Liking Secret of Mana is fine despite its flaws. The main thing I wanted to drive home are the people who call themselves 'hardcore mana fans' are SoM exclusive fans that will try to compare every other game in the series to their idolized game, not realizing just how flawed it truly is.

Edit 2: Ignore Night4 he is trying to troll and derail the topic.

[GrimoireA]

Unfortunately for you Billy Blaze I'm rather fond of writing, and frankly you have contributed the least to this topic than anyone else so far.

Imagine entering a debate topic and complaining that its a debate topic.

[Casual Amateur]

Originally posted by night4:

Originally posted by Mossy Mushroom:

Who ever this (night4) is... Only thing I get out of this user is game play is slow and all other comment from this user is......

That don't explain any more about the demo game problem at all and this user didn't really explain what SOM game did better here on out.

Do (night4) know any thing about SOM at less? It seem like (night4) just using that name and that it.

You didn't look hard enough then, because I went into issues with the graphics, characters, menus, dialogue, combat, tutorial, brightness, options, movement, controls, and more. Didn't really notice any performance issues like over-stressing pc like in some other unoptimized games, but I also couldn't play very long as it's a complete disaster and literally made me sick to my stomach with how bad it was.

Not all of that was in this thread, but I didn't rehash every issue here as it's not really relevant to this thread.

At any rate, I'm not exactly sure what you're asking and there seems to be a language barrier here. So if you've got something specific to ask, maybe you should try that.

You still didn't explain much earlier and didn't explain why SOM is better at all.

I also try out the demo. My stomach feel totally fine here. I didn't feel sick after playing it. Also my pc play this game just fine...... SO yeah.....

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Mossy Mushroom:

Originally posted by night4:

You didn't look hard enough then, because I went into issues with the graphics, characters, menus, dialogue, combat, tutorial, brightness, options, movement, controls, and more. Didn't really notice any performance issues like over-stressing pc like in some other unoptimized games, but I also couldn't play very long as it's a complete disaster and literally made me sick to my stomach with how bad it was.

Not all of that was in this thread, but I didn't rehash every issue here as it's not really relevant to this thread.

At any rate, I'm not exactly sure what you're asking and there seems to be a language barrier here. So if you've got something specific to ask, maybe you should try that.

You still didn't explain much earlier and didn't explain why SOM is better at all.

I also try out the demo. My stomach feel totally fine here. I didn't feel sick after playing it.

Good for you?

And I would think it's obvious why SoM is "better" (in as much as we can compare games so far apart in time):

It doesn't have as many issues in as many categories I listed. And it doesn't make me physically ill to play. Even if I imagine playing it for the first time today, I'd be annoyed by many aspects of it, yet still addicted to the combat and therefore able to enjoy it at least somewhat.

Much of it simply comes down to the amount of effort put into development. We're getting what Squeenix's D-team could crap out with minimal investment and it shows.

[Casual Amateur]

Originally posted by night4:

Originally posted by Mossy Mushroom:

You still didn't explain much earlier and didn't explain why SOM is better at all.

I also try out the demo. My stomach feel totally fine here. I didn't feel sick after playing it.

Good for you?

And I would think it's obvious why SoM is "better" (in as much as we can compare games so far apart in time):

It doesn't have as many issues in as many categories I listed. And it doesn't make me physically ill to play. Even if I imagine playing it for the first time today, I'd be annoyed by many aspects of it, yet still addicted to the combat and therefore able to enjoy it at least somewhat.

Much of it simply comes down to the amount of effort put into development. We're getting what Squeenix's D-team could crap out with minimal investment and it shows.

Really. What the issues in SOM? Want to see if you know it. I happen know few of it.

Also explain what it did better then demo.

[Kurokzg]

I remember playing the original SNES SoM a lot back in the days and enjoying it quite a lot mainly because it was one of the few games that had coop. I played the remake a little bit when it first came out, remembering it wasn't great and never finished it.

Now with Vision of Mana getting closer to release I decided to revisit SoM remake and yeah, it sure isn't good. Personally I think the problem with the remake is that it is relatively close to being a 1 to 1 remake of the original, which the original is pretty flawed game. This game is like a pseudo turn based rpg disguised an action rpg. Like why is there accuracy and evasion stat in an action rpg? When does attacks registers damage? Some enemies just rapid fires attack/spells with no chill. There is so much jank in this game.

Granted I do like and had fun with SoM (and the remake) but it is a really flawed game. I'm glad they learned a lot when they remade ToM (also liked the original a lot) and that became my favorite Mana game in the series. So I'm looking forward to see what Vision of Mana brings. The demo looks good (ignoring the performance issues on pc) but I am a little sad the combat is a bit slower than ToM.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Mossy Mushroom:

Originally posted by night4:

Good for you?

And I would think it's obvious why SoM is "better" (in as much as we can compare games so far apart in time):

It doesn't have as many issues in as many categories I listed. And it doesn't make me physically ill to play. Even if I imagine playing it for the first time today, I'd be annoyed by many aspects of it, yet still addicted to the combat and therefore able to enjoy it at least somewhat.

Much of it simply comes down to the amount of effort put into development. We're getting what Squeenix's D-team could crap out with minimal investment and it shows.

Really. What the issues in SOM? Want to see if you know it. Fews know of it.

Getting repeatedly attacked, especially by something in a narrow hall early in the game that can stunlock everyone and maybe cause a wipe. Early game mp issues, especially given the price of walnuts (this is alleviated in the remake as you get all your mp back when you level). Needing to level magic, especially new magic later in the game (I used fast-forward on an emulator to help with that). The music in the Dwarf Village (ugh). The fact that upgrading a weapon can literally make it worse if you lose a proc like Balloon or Unconscious. I could go on, but not even all that put together is enough to take away from the addictive combat.

One thing I forgot to mention: in SoM, I can see everything in combat and I know exactly what's going on. In Visions, not nearly as much. There's too much visual clutter and special effects and that's just fighting a rabbite? Can't imagine how bad it gets. Trials wasn't nearly as bad either.

[Amaterasu]

Originally posted by night4:

Originally posted by Mossy Mushroom:

Really. What the issues in SOM? Want to see if you know it. Fews know of it.

Getting repeatedly attacked, especially by something in a narrow hall early in the game that can stunlock everyone and maybe cause a wipe. Early game mp issues, especially given the price of walnuts (this is alleviated in the remake as you get all your mp back when you level). Needing to level magic, especially new magic later in the game (I used fast-forward on an emulator to help with that). The music in the Dwarf Village (ugh). The fact that upgrading a weapon can literally make it worse if you lose a proc like Balloon or Unconscious. I could go on, but not even all that put together is enough to take away from the addictive combat.

One thing I forgot to mention: in SoM, I can see everything in combat and I know exactly what's going on. In Visions, not nearly as much. There's too much visual clutter and special effects and that's just fighting a rabbite? Can't imagine how bad it gets. Trials wasn't nearly as bad either.

Ah yes, the addictive combat. In which one character(Popoi) is worth anything, Primm can help with healing and shore up defenses, but is useless outside of that.

While Randi from 40% through the game til the literal final boss after you cast a certain spell on him with Primm and Popoi can be summed up in the original as 000000000000000000000000000

Or in the remake as Miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss.

Statuses had a worse proc rate for me than in the final fantasy series, offensive magic was the only useful combat avenue. No weapon could hit worth a damn. The difference between a level 8 charge attack and a basic attack was about 53 damage(when enemies had regularly over 500 HP), minutes of your life waiting, and a slightly lower chance of whiffing.

The combat is only addictive because it pauses to activate neurons because "flashy and shiny lights make me happy". This vapid approach to how fights were designed in the latter half of the game meant that any time a fight happened, I'd turn something on youtube, and just keep ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ out spells until the thing died.

[Drake]

The worst issues of SOM is the wait time to get stamina back and the button holding to use weapon skills. Tweaking that alone can greatly improve the game.
Then using another method (like skill points on level up) to level magic and weapons would be cherry on the cake. The game doesn't need much to get way better.
Which is exatly what trials of mana corrected by the way (using class strikes and skill points on level up and getting rid of the stamina), and it shows.

[Amaterasu]

Originally posted by Drake:

The worst issues of SOM is the wait time to get stamina back and the button holding to use weapon skills. Tweaking that alone can greatly improve the game.
Then using another method (like skill points on level up) to level magic and weapons would be cherry on the cake. The game doesn't need much to get way better.
Which is exatly what trials of mana corrected by the way (using class strikes and skill points on level up and getting rid of the stamina), and it shows.

Seiken 3 also didn't make physical combat entirely useless and actively punished you late game for trying to spell nuke things. They would fire back with a class strike of their own.

[Casual Amateur]

Originally posted by night4:

Getting repeatedly attacked, especially by something in a narrow hall early in the game that can stunlock everyone and maybe cause a wipe. Early game mp issues, especially given the price of walnuts (this is alleviated in the remake as you get all your mp back when you level). Needing to level magic, especially new magic later in the game (I used fast-forward on an emulator to help with that). The music in the Dwarf Village (ugh). The fact that upgrading a weapon can literally make it worse if you lose a proc like Balloon or Unconscious. I could go on, but not even all that put together is enough to take away from the addictive combat.

One thing I forgot to mention: in SoM, I can see everything in combat and I know exactly what's going on. In Visions, not nearly as much. There's too much visual clutter and special effects and that's just fighting a rabbite? Can't imagine how bad it gets. Trials wasn't nearly as bad either.

Repeatedly attacked can stun lock to enemy and also happen your character too. How ever..... This actually make the game play slower to the demo. Do to it make you watch them taken damage animation. Cause it does not show all damage at once. Also repeatedly attacked quickly can cause enemy keep on avoiding your attack and very little damage or no damage at all.

About money problem. In old version. People found a glitch that they can keep selling rope for unlimited money. Also people found another glitch can permanent incense stats by casting buff save the game before buff go away. By doing this it make the game way to easy. Also charge up your attack kind a waste of times and it only hit them once and your character attack animation keep going into it stop. The enemy avoid taken damage from fully charge attack.

In SOM have habit making you switch weapon just to break rock/weed/whip jump.

Having the effect Balloon or Unconscious on weapon. At some point you kinda don't need it any more. That you pretty want to kill enemy really fast.

In SOM does not have quest mark to tell where you need to go at all and there is no tutorial at all that you have to figure it out your self.

In SOM does not allow to avoid magic attack at all.

Even there some troll chest in random loot from monster can Kill/poison/bomb/punch you for open it.

(edit)I almost forgot remember that stupid slime(fire/ice version) that keep on multiplying that make the battles last a lot longer. To the point it best to ditch it. If you can't kill it fast enough.

I do play this old game by the way. I don't see why SOM being 10 times better then Demo Version of mana right now. Since we don't know much about it other then the demo it self.

As Demo don't punishment you for spamming attack often any way.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Mossy Mushroom:

Originally posted by night4:

Getting repeatedly attacked, especially by something in a narrow hall early in the game that can stunlock everyone and maybe cause a wipe. Early game mp issues, especially given the price of walnuts (this is alleviated in the remake as you get all your mp back when you level). Needing to level magic, especially new magic later in the game (I used fast-forward on an emulator to help with that). The music in the Dwarf Village (ugh). The fact that upgrading a weapon can literally make it worse if you lose a proc like Balloon or Unconscious. I could go on, but not even all that put together is enough to take away from the addictive combat.

One thing I forgot to mention: in SoM, I can see everything in combat and I know exactly what's going on. In Visions, not nearly as much. There's too much visual clutter and special effects and that's just fighting a rabbite? Can't imagine how bad it gets. Trials wasn't nearly as bad either.

Repeatedly attacked can stun lock to enemy and also happen your character too. How ever..... This actually make the game play slower to the demo. Do to it make you watch them taken damage animation. Cause it does not show all damage at once. Also repeatedly attacked quickly can cause enemy keep on avoiding your attack and very little damage or no damage at all.

About money problem. In old version. People found a glitch that they can keep selling rope for unlimited money. Also people found another glitch can permanent incense stats by casting buff save the game before buff go away. By doing this it make the game way to easy. Also charge up your attack kind a waste of times and it only hit them once and your character attack animation keep going into it stop. The enemy avoid taken damage from fully charge attack.

In SOM have habit making you switch weapon just to break rock/weed/whip jump.

Having the effect Balloon or Unconscious on weapon. At some point you kinda don't need it any more. That you pretty want to kill enemy really fast.

In SOM does not have quest mark to tell where you need to go at all and there is no tutorial at all that you have to figure it out your self.

In SOM does not allow to avoid magic attack at all.

Even there some troll chest in random loot from monster can Kill/poison/bomb/punch you for open it.

I do play this old game by the way. I don't see why SOM being 10 times better then Demo Version of mana right now. Since we don't know much about it other then the demo it self.

As Demo don't punishment you for spamming attack often any way.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "sluggish" attacks, it's more about the attack animation and how it feels vs actual time in combat. Not that the actual time even matters - what matters is fluid-feeling combat with satisfying results like good sound effects and knockback/knockdown, death animations, etc. The demo has none of that.

No tutorial in SoM is a good thing because it means the game is intuitive enough to figure out without it. Though there was a player's manual.

And I didn't say SoM was "10 times better". It's just still somewhat enjoyable today whereas the demo was anything but enjoyable. I didn't expect the demo to be SoM, I just expected quality and got none.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Amaterasu:

Originally posted by night4:

Getting repeatedly attacked, especially by something in a narrow hall early in the game that can stunlock everyone and maybe cause a wipe. Early game mp issues, especially given the price of walnuts (this is alleviated in the remake as you get all your mp back when you level). Needing to level magic, especially new magic later in the game (I used fast-forward on an emulator to help with that). The music in the Dwarf Village (ugh). The fact that upgrading a weapon can literally make it worse if you lose a proc like Balloon or Unconscious. I could go on, but not even all that put together is enough to take away from the addictive combat.

One thing I forgot to mention: in SoM, I can see everything in combat and I know exactly what's going on. In Visions, not nearly as much. There's too much visual clutter and special effects and that's just fighting a rabbite? Can't imagine how bad it gets. Trials wasn't nearly as bad either.

Ah yes, the addictive combat. In which one character(Popoi) is worth anything, Primm can help with healing and shore up defenses, but is useless outside of that.

While Randi from 40% through the game til the literal final boss after you cast a certain spell on him with Primm and Popoi can be summed up in the original as 000000000000000000000000000

Or in the remake as Miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss.

Statuses had a worse proc rate for me than in the final fantasy series, offensive magic was the only useful combat avenue. No weapon could hit worth a damn. The difference between a level 8 charge attack and a basic attack was about 53 damage(when enemies had regularly over 500 HP), minutes of your life waiting, and a slightly lower chance of whiffing.

The combat is only addictive because it pauses to activate neurons because "flashy and shiny lights make me happy". This vapid approach to how fights were designed in the latter half of the game meant that any time a fight happened, I'd turn something on youtube, and just keep ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ out spells until the thing died.

So much wrong with this I don't even know where to start. Primm is useful on offense both directly and indirectly. No one should be missing that much in either version. Charged weapon attacks hit like a truck and the difference is in the hundreds even with a mid-level charge.

Offensive magic on some regular enemies with low magic defense and/or a weakness is fine and all, but if you're using magic on everything yet not enjoying that strategy... you're doing something severely wrong. Just Moon Energy your group and use weapons if that's what you want to do.

Combat is addictive because of reasons in above post (and ironically, it's the Visions demo that's just got "shiny lights" for no reason, not SoM).

[Casual Amateur]

Originally posted by night4:

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "sluggish" attacks, it's more about the attack animation and how it feels vs actual time in combat. Not that the actual time even matters - what matters is fluid-feeling combat with satisfying results like good sound effects and knockback/knockdown, death animations, etc. The demo has none of that.

No tutorial in SoM is a good thing because it means the game is intuitive enough to figure out without it. Though there was a player's manual.

And I didn't say SoM was "10 times better". It's just still somewhat enjoyable today whereas the demo was anything but enjoyable. I didn't expect the demo to be SoM, I just expected quality and got none.

Umm.... No sound effects/knockback/knockdown, and death animations.

Umm... I clearly hear sound effects. Also see knockback/knockdown in demo. Even Rabbite make sound for trying to bite you. Even turtle get knock down animation. Demo does show death animation.

If any thing it just a slow game play from my point of view. That it.

I think you were trying to tell me that you want better animation and better graphics. Well thats..... Kinda to bad. This is what we got right now.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Mossy Mushroom:

Originally posted by night4:

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "sluggish" attacks, it's more about the attack animation and how it feels vs actual time in combat. Not that the actual time even matters - what matters is fluid-feeling combat with satisfying results like good sound effects and knockback/knockdown, death animations, etc. The demo has none of that.

No tutorial in SoM is a good thing because it means the game is intuitive enough to figure out without it. Though there was a player's manual.

And I didn't say SoM was "10 times better". It's just still somewhat enjoyable today whereas the demo was anything but enjoyable. I didn't expect the demo to be SoM, I just expected quality and got none.

Umm.... No sound effects/knockback/knockdown, and death animations.

Umm... I clearly hear sound effects. Also see knockback/knockdown in demo. Even Rabbite make sound for trying to bite you. Even turtle get knock down animation. Demo does show death animation.

If any thing it just a slow game play from my point of view. That it.

I think you were trying to tell me that you want better animation and better graphics. Well thats..... Kinda to bad. This is what we got right now.

No, it's what YOU got right now because I'm never buying Visions.

[Casual Amateur]

Originally posted by night4:

No, it's what YOU got right now because I'm never buying Visions.

No problem. I going to try the full version any way. I don't have good reason to hate this version of the game right now.