Is Rate of Fire OP?

[IPunchedYourFamily]

I'm finding that there's little point mucking about with classes or unlocked weapons or go codes, or serious tactics because sending in leveled up Pointmen with Glock 17s is usually the best way of effecting a total smackdown on all short to medium range maps.

While I'm mindful that the efficacy of the Glock might mirror real-life circumstances, it does seem to make the vast majority of the guns, and a lot of the more complex tactical behaviours feel redundant. Most of the time I'm dont even bother looking under doors or throwing bangs because I know by Glockmen are going to win most fights, even against armored targets.

The only other guns that are fun are also the high fire rate weapons like the P90, MP7, Vector, and the automatic shotgun.

So what do you guys think? Am I imagining this or am I right in my supposition that the best way to win is just to get a lot of lead in the air?

[Vulpe Nebuna]

mods? default game? How far in the game are you?

[IPunchedYourFamily]

No mods. I tend to just play mission generator.

[six-P-]

Basic game here. RoF or something is overpowered. Something feels off: The 15 pt P90 rules hands down versus 25 pt Commando 553 even on long-range maps like the second campaign's second mission of drug deal.

[T-Bone Biggins]

I actually find the Mozambique skill might be a tad OP. I do not want it changed but I want it changed, just not sure how. At first I took advantage of the nutbar stats on the 1911, that thing is just quick all around and I do not mind ordering a reload when down to 2-4 rounds in the mag. Then I found out with double tap and Mozambique unlocked that even the HK USP with a supposedly lower ROF actually fired as fast but the extra damage helps on longshots and against unarmored guys.

Here is where the real difference becomes noticeable. Take a pair of pointmen and a pair of assaulters or breachers or whatever. If you play the random killhouses against heavy resistance you often get a loaded room. Lots of tactical bad guys with armor and one maybe even two of the heavy guys in the solid black armor. One flashbang and the pointmen with USP's can take down a few white-shirts a few tacticals and the heavy before it wears off. The Mozambique bypasses the heavy's armor and kills on third shot. Which is how it should be, if aiming for the head only a ballistic mask (http://www.interamer.com/ballisticfacemaskleveliiiafull.aspx) might help you and even then broken nose/sinus bones etc. would incapacitate via trauma to your head.

Take same scenario with breachers or assaulters, they would take much longer to wipe that same room due to them having to shoot the heavy several times even with rifles or other armor piercing rounds like the MP7. I have a replay where I just use pointmen and when running against a heavy I just flash, move in, have 3rd guy toss another flash to keep up the stun just in case the pointmen couldn't finish him in time. By the time the 2nd flash landed the heavy was dead for almost a second. Now I simply use assaulters for long-range shootouts only and most of my troopers are either pointmen or breachers, I just use the shotgun to pop doors if needed (lighter than hammer) and switch to pistol for the Mozambique benefit.

[IPunchedYourFamily]

I've played about another 40 hours since I made this post and I've actually shifted my position a little bit on this (especially after monkeying about with quite a few mods), but it's not a big shift. I've settled on the following which I think it pretty accurate representation of the weapons in the game. Note that this only takes into account the use of weapons and traits only in the core game and doesn't discuss any of the mods or the important tools in the game.

1. Having a have a full doctrine tree and a fully upgraded squad gives you more of an edge in-game than any combination of weapons.
2. The most reliable way to clear a room of hostiles (any armor level with no hostages) is with an automatic shotgun, the higher the rate of fire the better.
3. For all other CQB situations the best multipurpose weapons are the MP7 and the Glock 17 due to the combination of armor piercing rounds on the MP7, high mobility and high ROF.
4. The M4 is the only other weapon that is balanced enough to be used effectively indoors, so it's sometimes appropriate (but not essential) to use it on larger maps with outdoor areas.

Also the Mozambique/Triple tap function with pistols currently only works inconsistently and cannot be relied upon. I've had missions where I've had a trooper fully loaded and only feet from the target drop a full clip into a black armor dude only to get chopped down by him after being forced to reload. This is not a huge problem for me because surely this is a possible outcome in real life too and if it worked on cue every time it would take the danger completely out of the 3 enemy types.

My position mostly remains unchanged. In DK the best way to win quickly with no casualties is to have a fully upgraded squad with weapons that fire very fast.

[T-Bone Biggins]

I had lots of bad luck in missions and the killhouse generator with the MP7 so I never got around to unlocking the P90 thinking it would suffer the same problem with the low damage. Doing so now, gonna test this high ROF.

Oddly ignoring stats I feel the HK USP my favorite pistol out the of lot, the S&W M&P while a favorite in real life just gets my troopers killed a lot in this game, same for P226 I love that gun to pieces but it just doesn't hammer the targets like I need them to in DK. And for some reason I have better luck overall with the HK416 carbine than with the M4, even though the M4 has higher damage. Don't know, the guns seem to feel more different than stats lead you on to think. I might also try the FN57 (FS AP in-game) to match with the P90, since they were designed in real life to be paired up anyway :)

[T-Bone Biggins]

OK I will say P90 works so much better than MP7. It's not simply rate of fire that makes the gun decent for killhouse runs though, I think it's the full auto capability more than anything. Try the HK UMP45, that thing with it's 2rd bursts is near useless because it 'feels' like your troopers just take a long time to re-aim between bursts. Very noticeable up close against bad guys who will do more DPS simply by dumping their guns full auto. P90 is constant full-auto, big benefit at least for the killhouse. Sadly the only way to save replays for random generated missions is to export them and I did, need to get around and upload my vids. Not to show off, I'm certain there are better players than me, but like one vid is a pointman raid another is a breacher raid, etc. they just showcase a certain item in a random setting so I don't know where the enemies are.

[Lonesome 77]

Some of the things said here are pretty much spot-on with what I've thought; for instance going with the 1911 at one point. I got 1911s for all my pointmen and as secondaries for all my assaulters early on, because without having much in the skill trees, the pew-pew pistols were getting my men into trouble. Got them 1911s and they're icing the enemy's cake. But now when they are upgraded fully, I am considering giving them USPs instead.

I also went the way of the M4. Based on stats, at least, I thought it was the best way to go at that point to take care of most situations (again, before fully upgrading) so I got them all M4s. And also got Mk 17s that I can equip on a guy or two if needs be. The M4s seem to work pretty well because I usually flashbang first anyways, and if I send in 2 guys for instance they can usually get the job done. The black armors and such can be a pain though.

After being on the forums tonight here I didn't really realize that maybe my Assaulter-centric force isn't necessarily the best it could be. I have most with M4s, then a shieldsman (used sparingly; may switch to pointman), pointman, 2 stealths (some maps are big and have multiple points that I could enter from so I usually like to send stealth guys in as far as possible), and a breacher with a semi-auto or auto shotgun (don't remember the exact gun). If I give more of my men P90s for instance, and higher cap, higher ROF pistols, etc maybe I can do even better.


One thing's for sure though, I am very disinclined to touch that 2nd drug cartel campaign mission no matter my guys' loadout lol. Would giving my guys P90s allow them to massacre the bad guys at the long range on full auto, as opposed to being massacred themselves in but a second? Lol. Here I was thinking giving them long range weaponry was a good idea...

[T-Bone Biggins]

The 2nd cartel mission you need to have the doctrine that negates cover and the long-range training, along with lots of flashbangs. Start off flashing them guys across the lot, SWAT guys in this game can chuck those things a long long way. Improvise from there, though I suggest every 2-3 second tossing another flash to keep the enemy down until the initial gunfight in the parking lot is over.

[Lonesome 77]

Originally posted by T-Bone Biggins:

The 2nd cartel mission you need to have the doctrine that negates cover and the long-range training, along with lots of flashbangs. Start off flashing them guys across the lot, SWAT guys in this game can chuck those things a long long way. Improvise from there, though I suggest every 2-3 second tossing another flash to keep the enemy down until the initial gunfight in the parking lot is over.

Yeah I had I think everyone through 1 flash into a different area, then had them go around to shoot. I think they still got massacred somehow. Maybe I just suck, lol.

Anyways, I'm curious, how would using say P90s work for it? Also what about having say a couple guys throw multiple stingers, and then have a couple throw flashbangs?

I've been away all this weekend without my computer so I couldn't test these out; perhaps I can try tomorrow though.

[Vulpe Nebuna]

Stingers are good to displace people / clear a lane of movement or fire. They can injure / kill though, which may be dangerous or useful.

Flashbangs just stun, and then you do the killing or arresting.

[T-Bone Biggins]

One thing that bugs me really bad while we are talking ROF is the HK UMP. That thing with it's 2rd bursts takes so long to aim and fire between bursts, it just really suffers bad up close and mid-range and it appears that it's just set up to be hard to aim even though it's really a short weapon. I'd like to use it but I'll be honest I haven't found a worse weapon than the UMP yet...