Eyebeasts - Out of Curiosity…

[Ahakarin]

For anyone whose done a Magic Shaping focused run, how much damage do these things put out? The Ur-Drakons were really crazy powerful, and they’re meant to have more heft than the blinky death star creation.

I’m just trying to imagine what you get if you traded in the physical presence for even more laser output. I tried magic shaping back in Mutagen, and it really didn't thrill me.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

I use magic shaping but don't get those creations, since I play loyalist. However, according to the folks who calculate these things, Eyebeasts and Gazers are much better value than Drakons and Ur-drakons. They actually prefer to spam Drayks instead of Drakons, who can use their fire breath multiple times per turn for massive AoE damage.

See here for analysis[spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com]

Gazers and Eyebeasts can charm/dominate enemies, which is huge, and eyebeasts also get the nullity ability to block ability usage.

Also, unlike Drakons, their AoE attacks don't hurt your party on higher difficulties.

Magic shaping also get Glaahks which are very tanky and can AoE stun and Terrify, and Ur-Glaahks which can charm and AoE-stun. (I do use these and they're very useful.)

Essentially, Fire shaping just kills everything with AoE damage, while Magic Shaping has to use its tons of debuffs and crowd-control abilities to stop the enemy and then picks them off one by one.

Requires more finesse to use, but it's potentially even stronger. (Though each style has situations where it's better.)

[frobisher]

Very interesting. Thank you.

[slartifer]

Gazers definitely make Magic Shaping miles better than it was in Mutagen, yeah. Same thing for Rots and Battle Shaping.

[Mauman]

Originally posted by Iguana-on-a-stick:

I use magic shaping but don't get those creations, since I play loyalist.

Don't know if you know this, but Loyalists can get tier 4 summon training from Phariston. Hell, you can tier 4 battle summon training from the loyalist camp, which I found a bit surprising.

Unless you're talking about an RP/lore basis, then ok. But that sounds kinda tough since Drayks and even Battle Alphas are kinda iffy from that perspective (especially drayks). There's no in-game consequences to getting tier 4 summons however, so this is strictly an RP thing.

I'm doing a Loyalist no-canister* playthrough myself, and my little army of Ur-Drakons are incredibly useful.

*well, not "no-canister", more like 6 or less (for the best ending).

[Mechalibur]

Phariton won't train you if you're a loyalist, you have to be unaligned at that point.

There's another advanced trainer in Gazak-Uss, but that's very late into the game and very much not RP-friendly for a loyalist.

Nothing's really iffy about battle alphas. They're shaped to be reliable and dumb.

[Mauman]

Originally posted by Mechalibur:

Phariton won't train you if you're a loyalist, you have to be unaligned at that point.

There's another advanced trainer in Gazak-Uss, but that's very late into the game and very much not RP-friendly for a loyalist.

Nothing's really iffy about battle alphas. They're shaped to be reliable and dumb.

Loyalist == non-aligned. If you're not a member of a faction, then you are by default loyal to the council.

You're thinking Servant aligned. Though similar, it's not the same. The loyalist groups (such as the encampment) will even tell you so.

About the alphas, perhaps I'm thinking about the betas. Regardless, there's quite a few times that you meet that type of rogue creation and the dialogue says along the lines of "hard to control, looked down upon".

[Mechalibur]

I'm not thinking of the Servants. Unaligned is unaligned, and can very well lead to joining any faction. If I'm constantly saying anti-shaper, pro-servile statements, chugging down canisters, and otherwise blaspheming the Shaper council, I'm not a loyalist just by virtue of me not having joined another faction yet.

Do you have any examples of the battle alpha/betas being listed as looked down upon? I can't recall any examples like that. Loyal shapers in future games quite frequently are accompanies by battle alphas, so I don't think there's any stigma associated with them.

[Mauman]

Originally posted by Mechalibur:

I'm not thinking of the Servants. Unaligned is unaligned, and can very well lead to joining any faction. If I'm constantly saying anti-shaper, pro-servile statements, chugging down canisters, and otherwise blaspheming the Shaper council, I'm not a loyalist just by virtue of me not having joined another faction yet.

Do you have any examples of the battle alpha/betas being listed as looked down upon? I can't recall any examples like that. Loyal shapers in future games quite frequently are accompanies by battle alphas, so I don't think there's any stigma associated with them.

There's a few that I can think of. The bridge near Rising is the big one. There's another encampment of Rogue Alphas that the game makes note of, but I can't remember where.

Also, about the loyalist/unaligned bit. I mean this. Otherwise, I feel we must agree to disagree.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/5844057806742761577/4E7F7A09EF2A82FC5389B98225886D1DFB69D2D8/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false

As for later games, everyone took a level in stupid so I'm not surprised things changed in that regard.

edit - also, what you say about servile rights, and chugging canisters doesn't matter. You are, by default, still loyal to the shaper council if you don't join any factions and end the game. The only difference is if they execute you for shaping yourself if you don't clean up the messes or if they you let you stay on but under observation if you do.

What your character thinks of servile rights matters even less (as in, not at all).

[slartifer]

You guys are just having a terminology issue. Considering the non-aligned path to be the "truly loyalist" path is understandable, but the vocabulary that developed around the original Geneforge 2 very clearly used that as a label for Zakary's faction. That stuff is still googleable, so using it to describe the non-aligned path is just going to cause confusion. "Servants" and "Non-Aligned" are unambiguous so there's no reason to use an ambiguous or contested word to label an ending or faction.

Also, "just ending the game" is not enough to get the Non-Aligned ending. You have to kill Barzahl and the Taker leaders. (Killing Zakary and Pinner is not required, though you do get nods of approval for it.)

[Mauman]

Originally posted by slartifer:

Also, "just ending the game" is not enough to get the Non-Aligned ending. You have to kill Barzahl and the Taker leaders. (Killing Zakary and Pinner is not required, though you do get nods of approval for it.)

Not true. End the game and you get a non-aligned ending. You go before the council and explain things and you either get executed for self shaping or sent back to your apprenticeship

It's not a good ending but it is a non-aligned ending.

[slartifer]

No, that's the same ending you get if you end the game early _with_ faction membership. It's not non-aligned-specific.

[Spiderweb]

Fun trivia: When I designed the original Geneforge 2, it never really occurred to me that people wouldn't want to choose a faction. I added conversation options about factionless runs in the remaster because, if I recall correctly, a tester made the (good) suggestion.

[slartifer]

You did write a very fulfilling non-aligned ending though! And Aodare did outline what was necessary even back then.

[Mauman]

Originally posted by slartifer:

No, that's the same ending you get if you end the game early _with_ faction membership. It's not non-aligned-specific.

I would consider joining a faction, then saying "screw this, I'm out" to be non-aligned.

Call it what you will, that's how I feel.

[slartifer]

Oh, what you describe absolutely is non-aligned.

What I'm saying is that "bad" ending is the same ending you get even if you're still in a faction. It's not affected by faction membership. It just means you haven't achieved the conditions for any of the 5 good endings (servants, awakened, barzites, takers, non-aligned).