Damage model like Tarkov?

[Roy]

Will the TTK and gunplay feel more like Ground Branch/Ready or Not/Squad etc or will it be very gear based and bulletspongy like Tarkov?

I'm not a fan of the latter, if you hit someone in the head or chest with a decent caliber they should go down, if not for good then temporarily.

Armor should do it's job obviously, but i'm hoping enemies can't soak up entire magazines here depending on the armor they looted?

[MFG_Tomas]

Hi Rioy, about gunplay, we've done a lot of research and we're going down the path of making the effects of guns as true to life as possible, including ballistics. We've gone into incredible detail. We'll be announcing all the details here on Steam soon. Stay tuned :)

[Ibuprofen]

Originally posted by MFG_Tomas:

Hi Rioy, about gunplay, we've done a lot of research and we're going down the path of making the effects of guns as true to life as possible, including ballistics.

Isn’t that an extremely difficult approach that can lead into messy gameplay?
The overall effect of firearms can be vastly different from situation to situation and person to person since there are almost endless factors which determine how a person will respond to a wound.

There been people that have been shot +10 times with assault rifles and still killing during combat.

People sometimes can tank high-caliber headshots depending on the angle.
But do I want to see that in video games? EFT promised the same. In depth wound mechanics. Yet their system is extremely broken and even if it works it is an arcade-style bullet spongy mess since they almost eliminated the ability to one hit with big calibers such as 7.62 NATO.

I am curious to see what the game will try to display. But also worried since (on a technical level) simple hardcore shooters work better in terms of hitreg/netcode and still are more realistic than approaches like ArmA: Reforger or EFT which fail to work on a technical level.

Not gonna lie. I will be extremely impressed if there is a real in-depth system that actually works. By the way: Will AI have the same health system?

[Maviard IV]

As long as there are no broken bones that effect my aim and walk speed I'll be happy.

It's such a horrible feeling running out of meds in Tarkov and hobbling to extract where you're essentially a dead man walking.

[Angsty Autist]

Walking out with broken bones with only one goal of survival is a real life reaction to taking such damage in combat so what is wrong with that? sounds like you just want a COD extraction shooter.

[Roy]

Originally posted by ShepGetzDubz:

Walking out with broken bones with only one goal of survival is a real life reaction to taking such damage in combat so what is wrong with that? sounds like you just want a COD extraction shooter.

I really dislike how every Tarkov player acts like they invented the realism tactical shooter genre even though they have a game in which they can tank entire mags.

Not everyone that doesn't like Tarkov's gimmicky mechanics wants CoD instead, that passive agressive assumption is outplayed, but you probably don't realise that as you're new to the genre and have only played Tarkov.

[Roy]

Originally posted by MFG_Tomas:

Hi Rioy, about gunplay, we've done a lot of research and we're going down the path of making the effects of guns as true to life as possible, including ballistics. We've gone into incredible detail. We'll be announcing all the details here on Steam soon. Stay tuned :)

Sorry i forgot to respond.
I hope you will find a balance between fun and realistic, but i hope you do draw the line with realism somewhere as too much "realism" can feel really bad in a desktop tactical shooter.

Ground Branch for example actually had a very in-depth damage model where certain organs could shut down and there was simulated internal bleeding, but they scrapped it because it was just really weird and hard to visualise for the player.

Surely Tarkov's calibers ballistics, armor damage models and whatnot are "realistic" in a sense but they're also completely BS in other fronts.
Someone might be able to absorb an entire magazine of lower caliber ammo IRL too, but they would go down to the ground and be concussed if anything, which is harder to simulate in a videogame.

[=TAC= Stuermer]

I hope you as a developer present exactly the game you had in mind but think about all the different preferences nowadays and implement configs, so we can have really nice customized servers in the future, where on bunch of people enjoy their arcade tank paradise, where others have to really be on their toes and need effective teamplay, because they otherwise just die like flies.

The essential is the customization through configs.
Many developers endlessly explain their idea to people on the forums, whole flamewars (holy wars) are being fought - all wasted energy because people don't tend to change their preference, they just will get frustrated and in the end it's a real mess between the original idea of the developers and millions of opinions of players.

What really works and makes everybody happy is configs.
Hope you guys consider this from the start, it's one of the key success points in games like ArmA and Insurgency.

[Roy]

Originally posted by =TAC= Stuermer:

I hope you as a developer present exactly the game you had in mind but think about all the different preferences nowadays and implement configs, so we can have really nice customized servers in the future, where on bunch of people enjoy their arcade tank paradise, where others have to really be on their toes and need effective teamplay, because they otherwise just die like flies.

The essential is the customization through configs.
Many developers endlessly explain their idea to people on the forums, whole flamewars (holy wars) are being fought - all wasted energy because people don't tend to change their preference, they just will get frustrated and in the end it's a real mess between the original idea of the developers and millions of opinions of players.

What really works and makes everybody happy is configs.
Hope you guys consider this from the start, it's one of the key success points in games like ArmA and Insurgency.

While i agree that the devs should stick to their own vision, configs might be risky for a new IP.
If done wrong or slightly wrong it can divide the community, which isn't an issue for titles like Arma or Insurgency, but might prove troublesome with lower playercounts.

I think things like configs are best added down the line when the game has been established and polished tbh.

[=TAC= Stuermer]

Absolutely, only really interesting for custom servers/modding, which - afaik - come way after EA.
Just mentioning it, because it's kinda important to think games in this way, if everything is behind codewalls and hardcoded stuff, it's more difficult to implement (and thus less likely).

[Roy]

Originally posted by =TAC= Stuermer:

Absolutely, only really interesting for custom servers/modding, which - afaik - come way after EA.
Just mentioning it, because it's kinda important to think games in this way, if everything is behind codewalls and hardcoded stuff, it's more difficult to implement (and thus less likely).

Yeah good point, they would definitely benefit from taking it into account early on if they can afford to.

[Ibuprofen]

Originally posted by Roy:

I really dislike how every Tarkov player acts like they invented the realism tactical shooter genre even though they have a game in which they can tank entire mags.

Not everyone that doesn't like Tarkov's gimmicky mechanics wants CoD instead, that passive agressive assumption is outplayed, but you probably don't realise that as you're new to the genre and have only played Tarkov.

That part about the EFT community is very true. There is some weird elitism in that community where they think of themselves as hardcore simulation players while this game is an arcade style RPG shooter that is unrealistic as hell. EFT would be a good game if it would not have been ruled by cheaters and would have a proper netcode. But even if it would work it is not realistic, not a simulation and certainly not hardcore with a TTK as high as EFTs.

Originally posted by Roy:

Surely Tarkov's calibers ballistics, armor damage models and whatnot are "realistic" in a sense but they're also completely BS in other fronts.
Someone might be able to absorb an entire magazine of lower caliber ammo IRL too, but they would go down to the ground and be concussed if anything, which is harder to simulate in a videogame.

They are not realistically portrayed at all. Tarkov basically took the entire NATO armor rating and added at least one or two levels to each armor solution. There are early Cold-War era helmets in this game which can stop or deflect rifle rounds which would pierce through like butter IRL.

EFTs damage system is a non-working mess. But even if it would work (numbers of data miners proof that) it would not be a true hardcore shooter or even remotely realistic. There is a high chance of a player still being combat-ready after being hit by 7,62x51 NATO or 7,62x54R in the heart/lung region. That wouldn’t just render your non-combat-ready anymore. EFT makes gunfights look like you need very high-caliber weapons (those needed for elephant or rhino hunting) to drop a human reliably.

And this is one of my biggest concerns with Gray Zone Warfare. Streamers and content creators often times hate low TTKs (because the screentime of gunfights is much slower when it is very easy to drop someone). EFTs TTK was low initially as well but had to be raised to extend the survivability of a streamer. Their feedback was basically the only thing that BSG ever took seriously. The louder part of the mainstream wants high TTKs and will try to turn everything that looks like they would like it into a game they like with high-bulletspongy TTKs.

If the devs think they could pull of a realistic system they should try it. But big streamer feedback may pervert their vision of the game as it did with EFT if they do not stick to their vision. Or they end up in a spot where it simply not working reliably on a technical level since all this adds to the netcode and computing in the background.
The only game where I seen a more in-depth damage system work properly was Red Orchestra 2 / Rising Storm 2 & Vietnam. Those game still been hardcore shooters while giving you a lot more survivability on limb shots than other hardcore shooters.
GZW is aiming for an even more in-depth system. That will certainly be hard to pull off.

[=TAC= Stuermer]

I think you can hear that in between the line on the interviews with the leaddev: He seems to be that guy who loves realistic encounters WITH tactical thinking, meaning sneaking, retreats, awareness of being outnumbered etc.

All that is rubbish if TTK is high and it will turn fast into almost the opposite of what he said he likes in the interview.

You can't pair realistic immersion with arcade features, it just doesn't work. Players will start to behave accordingly and all the realism goes out the window.

That's why I strongly believe in configs and a very clear server description: Fun for all players, if they know what they're getting into, no mixing.

[Ibuprofen]

Originally posted by =TAC= Stuermer:

You can't pair realistic immersion with arcade features, it just doesn't work. Players will start to behave accordingly and all the realism goes out the window.

That is true. But often unintentionally mixed together due to poor hitreg / netcode. ArmA: Reforger is a prime example of that. Intended to be semi-hardcore, yet very arcade since the netcode barely works and CQB gunfights often do not end with less than 10 hits on the enemy.

Originally posted by =TAC= Stuermer:

That's why I strongly believe in configs and a very clear server description: Fun for all players, if they know what they're getting into, no mixing.

I got no doubt that when they game will be a success and technically stable there will be plenty of support from modders for it. This is after all some sort of sandbox which is highly modifiable due to its setting and large map. There been servers for Day Z for example which turned the whole experience into a legit STALKER experience with all the mutants from the stalker universe and the complete maps of the franchise melted together.

Games like Baldurs Gate 3 have proven that many genres that have thought to be dead can be successful again. Even more than the Battle-Royal children hype train games.

[Mr. President]

It’s a great question and I feel with oP, but guys don’t worry, check their discord and you will find they already mentioned about the realistic medical/injury system instead of hit point system like in Tarkov.
I am very looking forward to this one!

[=TAC= Stuermer]

True, the general vibe sounds really good. Bit cautious because of many promises in the industry, but every title with "realistic", "deadly" and "needs teamplay" gets my happy face until proven wrong :)