Tomb Raider I-III Remastered Starring Lara Croft

Tomb Raider I-III Remastered Starring Lara Croft

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Level Design in 4, 5 and 6?
- Basically the levels got too big, less interconnected and the puzzles disappeared.
Are these things improved in the sequels?

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I enjoyed TR1 and was enjoying TR2 but started seeing these problems emerge until I got filtered by TR2's Monastery (No, I didn't attack the monks)... Also finished the first level of TR3 to "confirm" this.

The huge levels are visually confusing (which makes them even longer to figure out) and boring to play because so many of the animations are slow, it even got me to realize that a lot of the gameplay is you just holding UP to run foward, which increased even more my amount of quick saves, just so I don't have to redo anything.

I would often stop myself from playing TR right before sleep because it needed my full concentration to play properly, now it feels like I'm just playing without thinking, almost randomly running around the levels pulling levers, pushing boxes and collecting keys, as it seems like all the "puzzles" became just that.
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Showing 1-15 of 18 comments
keenan84 Jan 25 @ 12:58am 
The Last Revelation is probably the best from this point of view, the puzzles are indeed puzzles (some even quite tough).
TR4 "The Last Revelation" plays a lot like TR2, but it also introduces new game mechanics like rope swinging, combining items to solve puzzles, selecting between ammunition types, and using scopes. It also introduces connected levels and forces you to backtrack between them. Imagine in TR1 that you collect the lead bars in the Cistern level, return to the Palace Midas level to make gold bars, then to St. Francis Folly's Thor room to forge the gold into a key, and go back to the Coliseum to open a door that takes you Tomb of Tihocan--all without any hints that this is what you need to do.

TR5 "Chronicles" uses the same game engine as TR4, but actually plays more like "The Lost Artifact" than a main game. Each of the four mini adventures has a different theme and play style. Overall the game feels very experimental.

TR6 "Angel of Darkness" uses a different engine than TR4/5. Angel of Darkness kind of starts out as a stealth game, then becomes an interactive detective story for a while before settling into a typical Tomb Raider adventure. The gameplay and visual style feels to me a lot like "Tomb Raider: Legend" (TR7). AoD also has a Resident Evil vibe.
Last edited by shadowgravy; Jan 25 @ 1:31am
Originally posted by Dereshi:
- Basically the levels got too big, less interconnected and the puzzles disappeared.
Are these things improved in the sequels?

_________________________________________
I enjoyed TR1 and was enjoying TR2 but started seeing these problems emerge until I got filtered by TR2's Monastery (No, I didn't attack the monks)... Also finished the first level of TR3 to "confirm" this.

The huge levels are visually confusing (which makes them even longer to figure out) and boring to play because so many of the animations are slow, it even got me to realize that a lot of the gameplay is you just holding UP to run foward, which increased even more my amount of quick saves, just so I don't have to redo anything.

I would often stop myself from playing TR right before sleep because it needed my full concentration to play properly, now it feels like I'm just playing without thinking, almost randomly running around the levels pulling levers, pushing boxes and collecting keys, as it seems like all the "puzzles" became just that.
The long levels requiring back and forth are the best addition (some of these are not so "big", it looks big because of going back and forth through the same main location or locations).

The levels visually are not confusing at all (dont know what you considered confusing) and using constantly animations that are slow (holding to walk to not fall off) is more a matter of lacking confidence on yourself and understanding of the mechanics of the game.
This huge amount of quick saves are not needed at all.

The game requiring focus (your full concentration) is part of what makes it special, Tomb Raider first levels (even more TR 1) are more to let the player get acquainted with the mechanics of Lara and how to interact with the surroundings but it do escalate over with time.
TR2 is part of this escalation as TR 2 1st level already introduces gauntlets of the kind you would find only by the end of TR 1, meaning it is not "TR 1 over again" but a continuation, not only from lore but from difficulty and complexity, so it is to be expected that levels will have even more dangers and traps that require you to either understand fast what need to be done or memorize it, plan then try to perform as planned and if it fails it is up to you to see if you got the right plan to deal with the trap or gauntlet or if you lacked skill to do what Lara need to do... also levels are more complex and harder to be figured out ... but again, that is what Tomb Raider games are about, figuring out where to go on the level, what to do and how to reach places.

The puzzles are the levels themselves in most cases, with smaller and simpler puzzles spread through it, again, finding out where to go and what to do is part of the puzzle itself, not only collecting. If you had to wander around too much to find the stuff and then to find where to use, you went through the puzzle the level itself is, if you could find it out by luck or by actually understanding it is something else.

Tomb Raider 3 only doubles down on the exploration and puzzling of the levels and Tomb Raider 4 triples down on it making it multi-level puzzles and exploration. Tomb Raider 5 still maintain some of it in relation to TR 3 but adding more mechanical challenges and gauntlets harder than ever to be performed that will require planning and focus.
chakkman Jan 25 @ 10:27am 
Originally posted by shadowgravy:
TR4 "The Last Revelation" plays a lot like TR2, but it also introduces new game mechanics like rope swinging, combining items to solve puzzles, selecting between ammunition types, and using scopes. It also introduces connected levels and forces you to backtrack between them. Imagine in TR1 that you collect the lead bars in the Cistern level, return to the Palace Midas level to make gold bars, then to St. Francis Folly's Thor room to forge the gold into a key, and go back to the Coliseum to open a door that takes you Tomb of Tihocan--all without any hints that this is what you need to do.

TR5 "Chronicles" uses the same game engine as TR4, but actually plays more like "The Lost Artifact" than a main game. Each of the four mini adventures has a different theme and play style. Overall the game feels very experimental.

TR6 "Angel of Darkness" uses a different engine than TR4/5. Angel of Darkness kind of starts out as a stealth game, then becomes an interactive detective story for a while before settling into a typical Tomb Raider adventure. The gameplay and visual style feels to me a lot like "Tomb Raider: Legend" (TR7). AoD also has a Resident Evil vibe.
Now you made me want to play AoD.
Dereshi Jan 29 @ 10:07am 
Sorry, lost internet for days. Thanks for the answers.
I've been playing Twilight Princess HD and the dungeons are quenching my thirst for this type of gameplay very well, it's serving as a very good comparison.
In the end I guess I just have a limit for how far the size and confusion can go before it becomes frustrating instead of fun.

I'm gonna have to give up on 2 and 3, and give the sequels a try, I hear 4 is their magnum opus with many improvements (including Zelda-style floating camera that shows you what is being affected). 5 and 6 seem interesting, at least.
EF_Neo1st Jan 29 @ 10:16am 
Originally posted by Dereshi:
Sorry, lost internet for days. Thanks for the answers.
I've been playing Twilight Princess HD and the dungeons are quenching my thirst for this type of gameplay very well, it's serving as a very good comparison.
In the end I guess I just have a limit for how far the size and confusion can go before it becomes frustrating instead of fun.

I'm gonna have to give up on 2 and 3, and give the sequels a try, I hear 4 is their magnum opus with many improvements (including Zelda-style floating camera that shows you what is being affected). 5 and 6 seem interesting, at least.
TR 4 is their magnum opus in terms of levels length and the complexity of what you need to do (even because you may need to go back and forth "from level to level", as you can consider some off these levels are actually "multi-level") so if "length" is a problem for you then TR 4 absolutely will be the root of all problems (and will make you appreciate how "small" the levels in TR 2 and 3 are in comparison to these multi-level levels).
The leevels themselves are also somewhat more intrincate in TR 4, cluttered at times and revolving around itself in smaller areas before expanding into larger areas (somewhat like the last levels hubs of TR1 but with smaller and more cramped areas) but sometimes it is just enormous area that may hide paths by its sheer size and a few stuff around (that now with modern graphics probably will have several more stuff around, like what happened with TR 3 adding a lot of extra props to the environment instead of just changing walls and ground textures).

Just play the game as an exploration and puzzling game and dont "measure the time it takes", just play it.
chakkman Feb 3 @ 12:03pm 
TR4 is superb.
Well, TR4 is consistent as the first 3 games, and while you do have to advance between sequences, they are between large areas you transition between. There's advantages to that, but that's up to you. You just do what you need to do.

TR5 is disjointed. No pistols on the last level. It's also the most difficult level by then. It's good for lore knowledge to play, but I don't feel it's that essential.

TR6 is much different than the rest of them. But the pistols are back. If you like, you can throw punches and kicks, but it's harder that way sometimes. It's overall fairly easier though.
chakkman Feb 10 @ 12:45pm 
I really hope they fixed the Red Alert level in TR5. That save bug was the reason I couldn't finish my playthrough.
EF_Neo1st Feb 10 @ 12:47pm 
Originally posted by chakkman:
I really hope they fixed the Red Alert level in TR5. That save bug was the reason I couldn't finish my playthrough.
What save bug?
Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:
Originally posted by chakkman:
I really hope they fixed the Red Alert level in TR5. That save bug was the reason I couldn't finish my playthrough.
What save bug?
Probably the one where you encounter the robot in the room you're supposed to flood and you shoot it down.
chakkman Feb 10 @ 1:05pm 
It's described here, at the start: https://tombraiders.net/stella/walks/TR5walk/13-red-alert.html

I'm sure they fixed it in the remasters.
Last edited by chakkman; Feb 10 @ 1:06pm
Yeah, the very first major hurdle is the first cyborg as I mentioned above. I remember once making that mistake.

The second one, I couldn't confirm. I don't know if that's subjective. I do know it has no ability to climb out, so it may as well have fallen in on its own at some point, rather than just because of the save. I'm certain it first appears in the same corner of the room between the button room and the hallway, and I had no trouble with it saving before I hit the button to double back.
Scally Feb 13 @ 11:19am 
Originally posted by chakkman:
It's described here, at the start: https://tombraiders.net/stella/walks/TR5walk/13-red-alert.html

I'm sure they fixed it in the remasters.
I wouldn't bet on it. There are several glitches in the I-III remasters that they left in, but they're more beneficial than detrimental or game breaking.
EF_Neo1st Feb 13 @ 11:30am 
Originally posted by Scally:
Originally posted by chakkman:
It's described here, at the start: https://tombraiders.net/stella/walks/TR5walk/13-red-alert.html

I'm sure they fixed it in the remasters.
I wouldn't bet on it. There are several glitches in the I-III remasters that they left in, but they're more beneficial than detrimental or game breaking.
What glitches?
You mean going through (between) doors, blocks, walls, ceilling, down the floor, super speed underwater, swimming out of water and climbing to impossible heights?
All that existed in the originals and are used for gameplay and speedruns and I am glad all that still there.
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