TR3 is not as great as I thought

[Nightmare]

Hello,

Back then I was fascinated of Tomb Raider 3 and it was clear for me it was the best game.
I read multiple times people criticized TR3, and I never understood that...

However, after around 24 years later (ough, writing this sentence really hurts) I must change my opinion.

Compared to TR2 and TR1 I see these problems:
1) Level design
Taste is different, but if you ask me what levels in TR3 I really enjoyed, I'll probably say
- first Nevada level
- first Antarctica level
- second Pacific level
- second London level

Some of the London and Nevada levels were ok, but I guess Nevada was overall seen most fun for me, even though the prison level.
The first chapter is just annoying.
RX Tech Mines is probably the worst level I've ever played, even worse than Atlantis.

I'm currently playing the first level of the TR3 expansion, but I really have to motivate myself to play it, which should not be the sense of a game...

2) The polygons
In TR3 you have these "new" triangles which can be really annoying.
When you're under water and try to climb up on such a triangle, it's not (always) possible.
Also when you run until the edge of such a triangle, Lara starts rotating instead of stopping.
Jumping on them is not always easy either.

3) Level complexity
I generally like challenges, but in TR3 it's in some cases just confusing and it can happen that you lose the overview of the level.
Especially the very first level.
If you try to get all items (which I was able to), you will be frustrated.
Especially in Ganges River and Lud's Gate, where you need to glitch or to use serious game breaking exploits.

4) Vehicles
In TR2 it's difficult to die in Venice because of the boat, but not impossible.
The snow mobile can lead to death, in 1 or 2 situations.

However, in TR3 I think with every vehicle death is practically pre-programmed.
Driving a vehicle should be fun and giving some advantage.
In TR3 it's just "hopefully I will survive that ride".

After all, I agree that Tomb Raider 2 is more fun.
Tomb Raider 1 is a great game as well, no doubt.

Cheers!

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by Nightmare:

Hello,

Back then I was fascinated of Tomb Raider 3 and it was clear for me it was the best game.
I read multiple times people criticized TR3, and I never understood that...

However, after around 24 years later (ough, writing this sentence really hurts) I must change my opinion.

Compared to TR2 and TR1 I see these problems:
1) Level design
Taste is different, but if you ask me what levels in TR3 I really enjoyed, I'll probably say
- first Nevada level
- first Antarctica level
- second Pacific level
- second London level

Some of the London and Nevada levels were ok, but I guess Nevada was overall seen most fun for me, even though the prison level.
The first chapter is just annoying.
RX Tech Mines is probably the worst level I've ever played, even worse than Atlantis.

I'm currently playing the first level of the TR3 expansion, but I really have to motivate myself to play it, which should not be the sense of a game...

2) The polygons
In TR3 you have these "new" triangles which can be really annoying.
When you're under water and try to climb up on such a triangle, it's not (always) possible.
Also when you run until the edge of such a triangle, Lara starts rotating instead of stopping.
Jumping on them is not always easy either.

3) Level complexity
I generally like challenges, but in TR3 it's in some cases just confusing and it can happen that you lose the overview of the level.
Especially the very first level.
If you try to get all items (which I was able to), you will be frustrated.
Especially in Ganges River and Lud's Gate, where you need to glitch or to use serious game breaking exploits.

4) Vehicles
In TR2 it's difficult to die in Venice because of the boat, but not impossible.
The snow mobile can lead to death, in 1 or 2 situations.

However, in TR3 I think with every vehicle death is practically pre-programmed.
Driving a vehicle should be fun and giving some advantage.
In TR3 it's just "hopefully I will survive that ride".

After all, I agree that Tomb Raider 2 is more fun.
Tomb Raider 1 is a great game as well, no doubt.

Cheers!

I actually do like the whole of India levels (all 4) and South Pacific too (also all 4 and am saving it for last)
I do like the Nevada levels too (the 3 tho the last one is the best one) and about London and Antartica I actually dont remember much but I remember liking Antartica levels and I had forgot Thames Wharf being that big (you know, the level skip thing literally kills the level), Aldwich is also good too.

So overall the entirety of TR 3 is good to me but stil TR 2 is my favorite (and the one I played the most) while TR 3 I did not play as much and most of what I played more times was actually India, Nevada and first 3 levels of South Pacific, I end up playing mostly the levels I like the most from TR 3 but if South Pacific and Nevada were the final levels of TR 3 I prob would had played more the other levels through the years.

[keenan84]

It's your point of view, for me it was a bad design choice which in fact was corrected in the Remastered.

A game like Tomb Raider III was far too difficult to have limited saves (in Tomb Raider I, being an easier game, they made a little more sense).

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by keenan84:

It's your point of view, for me it was a bad design choice which in fact was corrected in the Remastered.

A game like Tomb Raider III was far too difficult to have limited saves (in Tomb Raider I, being an easier game, they made a little more sense).

It is the point of view of someone that played and finished it from back in the day, blind (no guides) and without any cheats.
Yes it requires players that played PS1 version to replay sections of the map (like from 3min to some 10min sexctions sometimes)?
Yes it do.

Is it bad design?
No it is not because you get the constant feeling that if you mess up you may lose all that progression.

In my very honest opinion playing with infinite saves saving every single step (every enemy, every jump, every item) makes it just a boring slog to the end where the only thing left is trying to know where to go and what to do, even more because it was not the intention of the devs anyway.

It was infinite saves everywhere for TR 2 at PS1 and they reverted back to limited saves (but being able to save anywhere) at TR 3 on purpose.

[jemYZX]

I will say the The Great Pyramid in TRI was rushed and few things were scrapped like Natla's Brood(Atlantean T-rex, still nobody fix the textures) and Atlantean Fish(actually fix model). However I will say the final boss having Natla's Brood would've had Lara force to go in those tunnels for it to not one shot Lara with the grab and bite death since that would be very challenging to Kill Natla and her Brood twice.

TRIII is also rushed but the huge mystery behind it all is the E3 Peru level "Run the Gauntlet" because nobody knows not even Core devs know who made it. I question Eidos but who knows who exactly. Also imo I hate almost all the India levels till you past them then it gets better, lol.

[dml!]

Originally posted by Nightmare:

I'm currently playing the first level of the TR3 expansion, but I really have to motivate myself to play it, which should not be the sense of a game...

It's too late now but I would have recommended taking a break before the expansion. I personally find The Lost Artifact to be better than TR3, and it's become one of my favourites in the entire series after just two playthroughs. It's definitely not perfect but it does reduce some of the problems you had with the main game. Collecting all items will be a bit tricky in some cases, but you don't need any glitches at least.

I agree with TR3 though, it's a bit of a mixed bag. Some things confused me no end on my first playthrough, and some game mechanics are annoying and even on occasion unintuitive, which happened less in the first two games (though one can argue about the amount of combat in TR2 being annoying). I enjoyed it more with subsequent playthroughs, and the remaster helped improve a few little things too, but I still prefer TR1 and 2 overall.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by CryoAtlantisFairy:

I like how everything’s gotten more hard in 2. So looking forward to begin 3 soon and see area 51 especially. Hope to be proven wrong and that it’s not bad as people say… Complaints about ”too dark” or too hard, it must mean it’s a challenge, just makes me more intrigued

I love the tomb raider 2 combat compared to 1 and how you won’t have to use the standard ammo too often anymore, you have more choice in which you can afford to waste… But both games have been some of the most fun I’ve had in a long time. 💗

If you mind your weapons choice .... I advise you go to Nevada first or last.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by CryoAtlantisFairy:

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

If you mind your weapons choice .... I advise you go to Nevada first or last.

Oh, so you can choose order in the third? Perhaps saving that one for last then!

Spoiler:
It happen because you lose all your ammo and have to getting it all back so doing it last dont chan ge anything and doing it first you start collecting weapons and ammo again

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by CryoAtlantisFairy:

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

Spoiler:
It happen because you lose all your ammo and have to getting it all back so doing it last dont chan ge anything and doing it first you start collecting weapons and ammo again

Oh I see! That’s how I got stuck, still am, in natla’s cave… they sure liked for that to happen in every game. 😯

First is perhaps best then

I beat TR games without using 1 single weapon, just the dual pistols.
It just take longer, you dont need more than that.

Just be prepared to play without weapons "for a time"

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by CryoAtlantisFairy:

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

I beat TR games without using 1 single weapon, just the dual pistols.
It just take longer, you dont need more than that.

Just be prepared to play without weapons "for a time"

So you mean I could basically finish 1 without getting back any weapons? I tried and got past all the guys but one, health is just too low there.

Okay! I use the uzis and m16 to get rid of them quickly in 2 to not waste any bandaid, especially the flame throwers

And befriended some bodyguards…

Check this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMW23l5V0nA
You can do similarly to dogs and whatever else, just roll around enemies to reach their back, they will have to turn around, often in place, to try and attack you while if you continue rolling aroun d them the enemies just wont stop turning around and die while you just spam your pistols at them.

Sure, the more enemies you have around the worst it is to do that also some enemies with hitscam start attacking you from distance so knowing the layout and knowing from where the enemies wil attack you help preventing you get hit until you can reach close enough or until you use the strategy of sideways jump to deal some damage and get back to a pillar or wall, but other than that melee enemies all you need to do is find a higher place they can not reach or they will take a time to reach you while you can safely shoot them.

[Nightmare]

Originally posted by dml!:

Originally posted by Nightmare:

I'm currently playing the first level of the TR3 expansion, but I really have to motivate myself to play it, which should not be the sense of a game...

It's too late now but I would have recommended taking a break before the expansion. I personally find The Lost Artifact to be better than TR3, and it's become one of my favourites in the entire series after just two playthroughs.

Yes, I'm taking a break.
Right now I'm playing Ender Lilies.
A great game if you like Ori and Hollow Knight.

Regarding TR3:
What I forgot to include in my 1st post:
The new movements aren't that great either.
Dashing might be ok, but crouching makes the game so much slower in some places.
I don't know how it is with modern controls, but with tank controls it looks like you have to move forwards (while crouching) and rotate at the end to get down.

Dashing is ok, but I would not mind it to be removed.
Perhaps it might be more useful to have the 2 shoulder buttons as sidestep buttons instead.

Cheers!

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by Nightmare:

Originally posted by dml!:

It's too late now but I would have recommended taking a break before the expansion. I personally find The Lost Artifact to be better than TR3, and it's become one of my favourites in the entire series after just two playthroughs.

Yes, I'm taking a break.
Right now I'm playing Ender Lilies.
A great game if you like Ori and Hollow Knight.

Regarding TR3:
What I forgot to include in my 1st post:
The new movements aren't that great either.
Dashing might be ok, but crouching makes the game so much slower in some places.
I don't know how it is with modern controls, but with tank controls it looks like you have to move forwards (while crouching) and rotate at the end to get down.

Dashing is ok, but I would not mind it to be removed.
Perhaps it might be more useful to have the 2 shoulder buttons as sidestep buttons instead.

Cheers!

You can actually go walking and press to crouch by the end, Lara will be already fitting inside the space (like she moved already 1 or 2 "steps" while crouching), it work sort of clipping through the upper part of the wall above the entrance and using the momentum, sort of "not eeasy" to get it consistently but for small spaces that are 1 block only it cuts a good portion of the crouching section.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by CryoAtlantisFairy:

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

Check this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMW23l5V0nA
You can do similarly to dogs and whatever else, just roll around enemies to reach their back, they will have to turn around, often in place, to try and attack you while if you continue rolling aroun d them the enemies just wont stop turning around and die while you just spam your pistols at them.

Sure, the more enemies you have around the worst it is to do that also some enemies with hitscam start attacking you from distance so knowing the layout and knowing from where the enemies wil attack you help preventing you get hit until you can reach close enough or until you use the strategy of sideways jump to deal some damage and get back to a pillar or wall, but other than that melee enemies all you need to do is find a higher place they can not reach or they will take a time to reach you while you can safely shoot them.

Okay, will check that and try to practise some of that to get a grip of the rolling! Thanks for the explaination, and subbed!

Thank you, even tho I do TR videos mostly to explain something (like how to get somewhere or do something, to do a glitch or something of the kind).

Give it time and practice, it helps (you may get screwed if you roll into the enemy or between enemy and a wall but getting stuck at the enemy and the wall, not getting behind the enemy)

[Nightmare]

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

You can actually go walking and press to crouch by the end, Lara will be already fitting inside the space (like she moved already 1 or 2 "steps" while crouching), it work sort of clipping through the upper part of the wall above the entrance and using the momentum, sort of "not eeasy" to get it consistently but for small spaces that are 1 block only it cuts a good portion of the crouching section.

Yes, I know that small glitch, but thanks.
But I was talking about when you're already crouching and want to go down at the very end.
For example in Ganges River where you climb up, walk crouched and then jump down again.

Or in Lud's Gate right after taking the "thing" before the museum (don't know its name in English)
Then you walk crouched, take Uzi ammo and need to jump down before the security guy comes.

Cheers!

[dml!]

Crouching is slow but at least in the remaster they added additional moves to help it. The main problem as always is they never explain these moves. For example in tank controls, if Lara is crouching (but not yet on her hands to crawl) you can press the sprint key to make her roll forwards. I had no idea this existed for several months until I saw a clip of someone doing it. It's very useful to navigate long crawl spaces much faster, although turning to go around corners isn't easy in the crouched position.

The other useful move they added is allowing Lara to flip out forwards from a crawl space that's higher than the ground beyond it, rather than having to turn her round to face backwards. Though this can't be used all the time as if the drop is too far you have to back out anyway to survive the fall.