TR-3

[slx3d_]

real talk guys, currently playing TR-3 and it is true pain in the a**. i have no idea how people beat this game in the ps1 era with limited safes and poor graphics. thankfully it's at least less punishing and frustrating with safe spam. finished india, nevada and soon temple of puna. london ahead and i am exhausted already :/

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by slx3d_:

real talk guys, currently playing TR-3 and it is true pain in the a**. i have no idea how people beat this game in the ps1 era with limited safes and poor graphics. thankfully it's at least less punishing and frustrating with safe spam. finished india, nevada and soon temple of puna. london ahead and i am exhausted already :/

I dont understand what the graphics have to do with it also it was not "♥♥♥♥♥♥" for the time, it was not "top graphics for a PS1", yes it was not, but it also was not ♥♥♥♥♥♥ either.

About limited saves .. you know, save, play a good bunch progressing "then" save again spending a crystal?
I also played TR 2 and good bunch of TR 1 without memory card meaning I did not save at all and went as far or beyond Midas at TR1 without saving (and no I did not leave PS1 on through day and night, every time I turned off the game I had to restart the whole thing, also if I died) so "finding out ways to do it faster", including ignoring what is not really needed, was a thing too.

[slx3d_]

naah bro, you can't deny the fact that tr-3 is way more frustrating than its predecessors. you can die literally every second step and thats so frustrating that safe scamming keeps you in a tolerable mood. no way many players beat this game in its original version.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by slx3d_:

naah bro, you can't deny the fact that tr-3 is way more frustrating than its predecessors. you can die literally every second step and thats so frustrating that safe scamming keeps you in a tolerable mood. no way many players beat this game in its original version.

Plenty of people finished back in the day. Everyone? No, not everyone (it never is everyone) but plenty of people finished it.
Because you are using "yourself" as metric dont mean the world is like you. I am absolutely sure a lot of people is like you and would had dropped it on PS1 or Saturn back in the day (let alone without memory card) but it dont mean "no way many players beat this game in its original version".

Also, back in the day people were used to arcade machines where you would be playing solo for 15 min trying to beat SF or MK and suddenly someone shows up, beat you, take your place and you would have to wait for an arcade to be empty again to try again for another 15+ minutes "IF" no one else showed and if you dont lose.
Doing a TR level that takes around 30min to 45min if you explore a lot and dont know exactly where to go while having multiple saves through the level (not only 1 save per level) is more than enough for someone of my age or older (the average gamer of the 90s that played the Tomb Raider games at PS1.

[shadowgravy]

It took me 20 years and several starts on various platforms before I finally finished the game. My second completion was the remastered version of TR3.

[EF_Neo1st]

I actually had finished TR 2 and TR 3, I think maybe even TR 4 and 5 before I finished TR 1 (but I am not sure about 4 and 5 before TR 1).

[aeglosistarion]

Some development lore:

The way I hear it, TR3 started life as a expansion pack for TR2, aimed at hardcore players who had mastered that game. That's a big reason for why it has this noticeable jump in difficulty - they wanted something that would challenge TR veterans.

The expansion was handed to a team comprised mostly of new hires under the leadership of a few TR2 veterans, while the bulk of the TR2 team moved on to develop the next full sequel. However, the sequel team soon found that they would need more time than the usual 12 months to finish that project, so Eidos upgraded the TR2 expansion to full sequel status, and what had been meant to be TR3 turned into TR4 instead.

As to how to enjoy it:

Honestly, I didn't the first couple of times I played through it. TR3 is like the peated scotch of the series - you have to learn to love it, work your way up to it. It took me a complete playthrough of the entire PS1 series (1-5) before I was battle-hardened enough to appreciate what TR3 is doing: Relentlessly trolling the player.

Think of it as a mental chess match, where you're constantly trying to anticipate the ways the devs will try to kill you, while they do their best to get you despite you knowing what they're up to.

There are a lot of instances where they use your knowledge of common level design tropes established in the previous games against you, and there are others were they prime you to expect the unexpected only to lure you into the embarassingly obvious trap you overlooked. And some of them are just... so f**ked up and unfair that you have to appreciate it.

If you want to enjoy TR3, you need to be ready to laugh at each new death the devs manage to trick you into, and pat yourself on the back for each one you anticipate. It's like a friendly rivalry, a joke between mates.

Or maybe the game has just broken me and turned me into a battered wife making excuses for her husband - whatever the case may be, I like my version better.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by aeglosistarion:

Some development lore:

The way I hear it, TR3 started life as a expansion pack for TR2, aimed at hardcore players who had mastered that game. That's a big reason for why it has this noticeable jump in difficulty - they wanted something that would challenge TR veterans.

The expansion was handed to a team comprised mostly of new hires under the leadership of a few TR2 veterans, while the bulk of the TR2 team moved on to develop the next full sequel. However, the sequel team soon found that they would need more time than the usual 12 months to finish that project, so Eidos upgraded the TR2 expansion to full sequel status, and what had been meant to be TR3 turned into TR4 instead.

As to how to enjoy it:

Honestly, I didn't the first couple of times I played through it. TR3 is like the peated scotch of the series - you have to learn to love it, work your way up to it. It took me a complete playthrough of the entire PS1 series (1-5) before I was battle-hardened enough to appreciate what TR3 is doing: Relentlessly trolling the player.

Think of it as a mental chess match, where you're constantly trying to anticipate the ways the devs will try to kill you, while they do their best to get you despite you knowing what they're up to.

There are a lot of instances where they use your knowledge of common level design tropes established in the previous games against you, and there are others were they prime you to expect the unexpected only to lure you into the embarassingly obvious trap you overlooked. And some of them are just... so f**ked up and unfair that you have to appreciate it.

If you want to enjoy TR3, you need to be ready to laugh at each new death the devs manage to trick you into, and pat yourself on the back for each one you anticipate. It's like a friendly rivalry, a joke between mates.

Or maybe the game has just broken me and turned me into a battered wife making excuses for her husband - whatever the case may be, I like my version better.

There actually is no troling, to those "with attention" every singlle one of the "trolls" is avoidable/dodgeable if you dont just go running around aimlessly but that pretty much the ending of TR 1 and TR 2 teaches you too so it is not like TR 3 started it.
The levels tend to have more traps and gauntlets yes but it is not like anything new either (last levels of TR 1 and even TR 2 in the very first level shows what the games are up to, TR 3 shows with its first level that it is less about gauntlets and more about being alert and with attention to your surroundings even more because "the path" is even less obvious than at previous Tomb Raiders with multiple paths so you have to remain looking for that too.

Also prob after you finished TR 4 and TR 5 you looked back at TR3 and said "how cute the game is attempting to be hard"

[Nightmare]

I beat TR3 back then on the PSX.
As far as I remember it wasn't that difficult.

Some weeks ago I started playing the Remastered version of TR3 on PC.
I agree that India really sucks because of the graphic details and multiple ways.

Nevada was pretty decent, even though the 2nd level.

Pacific was ok, yet better than India.
Also here it can be a bit more difficult because of the details.
Puna Temple?
You mean the one which is not even 10 minutes long??
Uhm, ok.

London is interesting, but I'm currently only at Luds gate.
Antarctica, I don't remember

Regarding the save crystals in the psx version.
I think people can quickly addept and concentrate more when they know saves are limited.
It's like in a soccer game when you're leading 3:0, you'll play worse compared to if it was 0:0 or even 0:1.
These infinite saves on the Remastered versions destroy the gameplay anyway, as I have explained multiple times in other threads.

Cheers!

[aeglosistarion]

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

There actually is no troling, to those "with attention" every singlle one of the "trolls" is avoidable/dodgeable if you dont just go running around aimlessly but that pretty much the ending of TR 1 and TR 2 teaches you too so it is not like TR 3 started it.
The levels tend to have more traps and gauntlets yes but it is not like anything new either (last levels of TR 1 and even TR 2 in the very first level shows what the games are up to, TR 3 shows with its first level that it is less about gauntlets and more about being alert and with attention to your surroundings even more because "the path" is even less obvious than at previous Tomb Raiders with multiple paths so you have to remain looking for that too.

Oh, I use "trolling" affectionately, don't worry. It's the reason TR3 is my second favorite of the PS1 games. But I think there is definitely a difference in how traps are used in TR3 compared to the other games: Before, you could avoid traps by being careful. Here, you sometimes get traps that PUNISH being careful. Or you have two traps in a row, where avoiding trap #1 sets you up for trap #2. TR1 and 2 pulled stuff like that once or twice. TR3 does it way more often than that.

And on top of that, it's like you said yourself: The previous two games slowly ramp up the difficulty (even TR2, once you get past The Great Wall) until you get to the final levels that really test you, whereas TR3 starts intense and stays intense all the way through. It's totally fair for OP to call it exhausting: You really have to stay on your toes at all times - that's tough.

There's actually a reason for this, too:

When the game was still meant to be an expansion pack, the different locations were actually seperate mini-campaigns that you could play in any order - and that meant each of them needed to be equally difficult instead of having a gradual difficulty curve.

They only added the overarching storyline tying these locations together when they got upgraded to full sequel. It's also why this is the only TR game that allows you to select the order of the locations you travel to - it's a remnant of the previous iteration of the project.

[aeglosistarion]

Originally posted by Nightmare:

I beat TR3 back then on the PSX.
As far as I remember it wasn't that difficult.

Not that difficult compared to what? Wrestling a polar bear? Bench pressing a car?

The PS1 version kicked my a** so bad back then I'm still feeling it today, and statements like this don't exactly help ;-)

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by aeglosistarion:

Originally posted by Nightmare:

I beat TR3 back then on the PSX.
As far as I remember it wasn't that difficult.

Not that difficult compared to what? Wrestling a polar bear? Bench pressing a car?

The PS1 version kicked my a** so bad back then I'm still feeling it today, and statements like this don't exactly help ;-)

TR 4 and TR 5 are harder, also ....
Like in simracing, sometimes you prepare yourself for 1 or 2 weeks, improving your best time and race pace, adjusting tyres pressure and for some even doing more adjustments and practicing more, up to some 2h to 6h per day, to have yourr race ending in turn 1 of lap 1 because someone hit you right at the start... can not get harder than that.

Also back in the day itself had harder games than Tomb Raider games, the hardest part of TR games is finding out where to go and what to do and it can be repeated through small sessions repeating from last save point.

[vinyblaster]

How interesting this thread could be if people could provide some examples for what supposedly makes TR3 so difficult... Why is it more difficult than the others? I don't remember encountering any specific problems back in the days, and now replaying with the remaster I'm cruising through it.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by vinyblaster:

How interesting this thread could be if people could provide some examples for what supposedly makes TR3 so difficult... Why is it more difficult than the others? I don't remember encountering any specific problems back in the days, and now replaying with the remaster I'm cruising through it.

It is more the "suddenlly snake" or "suddenly falling platform" or "suddenly hole in a darker area" and so on, along with "multiple paths that interceonnect" that may cause confusion as player may return to previous area or beginning of the level instead of progressing (and sometimes is exactly how you progress).

[secret hunt]

The London levels are starting with Aldwych are just insane. I remember getting extremely frustrated on PS1. Still, I beat the game and even got all secrets for All Hallows back in the day. It was a punishing game for sure.

[aeglosistarion]

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

Originally posted by vinyblaster:

How interesting this thread could be if people could provide some examples for what supposedly makes TR3 so difficult... Why is it more difficult than the others? I don't remember encountering any specific problems back in the days, and now replaying with the remaster I'm cruising through it.

It is more the "suddenlly snake" or "suddenly falling platform" or "suddenly hole in a darker area" and so on, along with "multiple paths that interceonnect" that may cause confusion as player may return to previous area or beginning of the level instead of progressing (and sometimes is exactly how you progress).

This, pretty much.

Anything is easy once you're good enough at it. I don't struggle with the game either these days, because I know all the mechanics and gameplay quirks of these games and also understand that in this game in particular you really need to pay attention to your surroundings. And of course the unlimited saves make a huge difference, as well.

But if you're coming into TR3 as a new player, and your only prior experience with this type of gameplay is the previous two installments that you fumbled your way through while still getting to grips with how to even play these games (non-standard controls, very unfamiliar gameplay and pacing compared to modern games), TR3 is where the real Dark Souls starts. You either know what you're doing, or you're going to die, a lot, with much less progress made between each death due to the higher frequency of hazards and traps. It can wear you down.

I get the sense that most of the responses in this thread are from veteran players. Maybe some of you were experienced gamers even when these games were new, used to tank controls and with a good "gamer sense" when it came to traps and such, and thus able to overcome TR3s challenges with relative ease.

But since the thread was started by a newcomer, I think we should keep that perspective in mind as well. Perhaps that is easier for me than it is for you, since unlike you I didn't have a good time with the game when I first played TR3, but have found it easier to appreciate the better I got at TR in general. (For context, while I did play some of these games when they came out, I only really got into classic TR a little over 10 years ago - and TR3 was a big reason why I stayed away before).