New v/s old Lara Croft

[ParabolaWaVe]

Revisiting these games again made me realize that I actually like many elements from the new Lara Croft character, and also, that I wasn't attached to the old character as much as I thought.

What I actually preferred about the old games were its slower pacing, the puzzles, the greater sense of exploration and discovery. Even the clunky controls added to the charm. But Lara herself?... Here, I have to separate the visual component from Lara Croft's personality.

I do prefer her original body model, perhaps. More fit and, of course, sexy. Someone as acrobatic as her should have a very athletic body, its even a matter of logic. But at the same time, personality wise, the old Lara seems today (puzzlingly) much more "modern" and girlbossy than the new. She isn't very different to the female action hero of all modern entertainment, with somewhat aggressive and masculine attitudes.

The new Lara Croft was, in contrast, a more feminine, more realistic, more vulnerable take as a female lead. Personally, I don't think I've seen many "vulnerable female leads" in recent action films and games.

So, after playing these classic games again, I'm left with the feeling that if we forget all about the visual design of the characters, the old Lara Croft actually followed the more "modern", girl-boss entertainment formula we're so familiar with, at least, while the new version was, ironically, much closer to a classic, more femenine lead character. Which, I'd argue, is somewhat refreshing in current times. Feel free to disagree.

[ParabolaWaVe]

Ursprungligen skrivet av AStaemUser:

I did enjoy young Lara going from vulnerable to learning to kill to survive from the Tomb Raider reboot. I didn't like they extended that through the next games like she never killed before despite we killing so many people. It felt fake and forced. Did not make much sense in Shadow of Tomb Raider to keep her so whiny. There was no progression on her personality which is a shame. Still, it's a minor issue.

I agree. I also think Crystal Dynamics started good with the reboot, but lost direction as the series went on.

[OyajiBR☕]

Square Enix and Crystal Dynamics could have created their open world survival game with its own title and character with her own name, but they decided to use the famous names Tomb Raider and Lara Croft to sell more easily, even though they're COMPLETELY different. Tomb Raider is about exploration, isolation, quietness, puzzle solving, discovery and occasional shooting. The new game has X-ray and GPS, that completely ruins the exploration, the puzzles almost don't exist and "Lara" is always talking to people on a radio, so there's no quietness. And she never used the 2 pistols despite old and new players' requests. Survival Lara is like Indiana Jones without hat and whip.

And to those who think old Lara "didn't have emotions", she had, in Tomb Raider 4 she cries for a soldier who gives his life for her, but the graphics were simple and the game wasn't focused on her emotions and family, it was focused on the adventure.

[ParabolaWaVe]

Ursprungligen skrivet av OyajiBR☕:

Square Enix and Crystal Dynamics could have created their open world survival game with its own title and character with her own name, but they decided to use the famous names Tomb Raider and Lara Croft to sell more easily, even though they're COMPLETELY different.

Yes, completely agree they are different games with a different spirit. I'm only having an opinion on the character itself and how it was written, because my opinion on the games is different.

I do prefer the old school style of gaming where you have to figure things out for yourself. But in a modern, story driven game, the most complex and flawed character is usually the best for the job.

[vinyblaster]

Ursprungligen skrivet av ParabolaWaVe:

Ursprungligen skrivet av OyajiBR☕:

Square Enix and Crystal Dynamics could have created their open world survival game with its own title and character with her own name, but they decided to use the famous names Tomb Raider and Lara Croft to sell more easily, even though they're COMPLETELY different.

Yes, completely agree they are different games with a different spirit. I'm only having an opinion on the character itself and how it was written, because my opinion on the games is different.

I do prefer the old school style of gaming where you have to figure things out for yourself. But in a modern, story driven game, the most complex and flawed character is usually the best for the job.

How is new Lara complex and flawed? Modern female characters are rarely flawed.

[OyajiBR☕]

Ursprungligen skrivet av ParabolaWaVe:

Ursprungligen skrivet av OyajiBR☕:

Square Enix and Crystal Dynamics could have created their open world survival game with its own title and character with her own name, but they decided to use the famous names Tomb Raider and Lara Croft to sell more easily, even though they're COMPLETELY different.

Yes, completely agree they are different games with a different spirit. I'm only having an opinion on the character itself and how it was written, because my opinion on the games is different.

I do prefer the old school style of gaming where you have to figure things out for yourself. But in a modern, story driven game, the most complex and flawed character is usually the best for the job.

The classic games were story driven too, but cutscenes couldn't be very long back then and they were about the adventure, not about Lara's family with forgettable characters (I can't remember a single name from Shadow). New Lara is so "realistic" that she had never killed a guy before, than moments later she's killing dozens of trained men and putting lots of things in her weapons.

[Salander]

No Lara is a bad Lara in my book, except maybe the 2018 movie one. She is part of that group of characters that has been pretty consistent in quality and charm since her initial conception. Something like... Let's say Doctor Who or James Bond.

[Barron]

Ursprungligen skrivet av OyajiBR☕:

Square Enix and Crystal Dynamics could have created their open world survival game with its own title and character with her own name, but they decided to use the famous names Tomb Raider and Lara Croft to sell more easily, even though they're COMPLETELY different. Tomb Raider is about exploration, isolation, quietness, puzzle solving, discovery and occasional shooting. The new game has X-ray and GPS, that completely ruins the exploration, the puzzles almost don't exist and "Lara" is always talking to people on a radio, so there's no quietness. And she never used the 2 pistols despite old and new players' requests. Survival Lara is like Indiana Jones without hat and whip.

And to those who think old Lara "didn't have emotions", she had, in Tomb Raider 4 she cries for a soldier who gives his life for her, but the graphics were simple and the game wasn't focused on her emotions and family, it was focused on the adventure.

/post

[EF_Neo1st]

Ursprungligen skrivet av ParabolaWaVe:

Ursprungligen skrivet av Dreamer:

And I hate the new Lara with a passion—all that crying, ugh.

The big problem of the modern character, I believe, was a visual thing. Crystal Dynamics and Enix started with a still sexy version of Lara for the reboot. But in later games, they took away more and more attractiveness from her instead of adding it, and as a result, the character ended with a very bland, very boring look. It sucks in our perception of the character too, because looking sexy is, at the same time, looking confident.

I can bet this is still a visual design problem, I'm sure that if the games are modded to return the sexy appearance to the rebooted Lara, the character would show its hidden potential.

The big problem with "reboot Lara" is:
1 - she dont look "anything" as Lara Croft (honestly, Lara is Angelina Jolie despite she played Lara in the movies way after the release of the games, Jolie is the perfect )portrayal of Lara
2 - she is too emotional and "taken to absurd extreme situations one after the other" as excuses to the mold of her character later on, you dont need to watch people die then be almost murdered in brutal fashion to "become a mindless killing machine", that, among other stuff, I think are too way over the top situations to serve as excuses instead of "Lara is uber confident and kills whenever necessary if that is a danger", because this Lara went from super soft to ruthless murderer/assassin with the blink of an eye after that (what imho mean she had that in her to begin with but "ruthless murderer/assassin" if someone is in her path is not how Lara was before, Lara always was good at shooting and acrobatics but never shown as "ruithless/mindless murderer" like this reboot Lara became).
They tried to make her more believable but a doctor already saw through it all and she would had not survived the first few minutes, hell, she would had not survived "properly" the first cutscene with the car at Rise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSljMXqFv3Q
So they tried to make her more grounded in reality but failed hard, if anythinig this Lara is even more "larger than life" because classic Lara dont suffer even near to half of these things and she is even portrayed as "doing mistakes" on cutscenes too, classic Lara is far more grounded imho.
3 - reboot (2013) have 1 simple puzzle and is fully linear while Rise have a bit more puzzles and not so linear then Shadow have more puzzles and even less linear (while still retaining the handheld from the game).
The combination of reboot Lara looks and persona to the games she was in makes her "not Lara Croft" in "not Tomb Raider games" where the only one of the new trilogy that is more near to be a Tomb Raider game is Shadow.
The fact 2 of the reboot games (aside from Shadow) dont get near the level of "Tomb Raider gameplay" (free exploration and puzzling focused) only makes me not see this character as "Lara Croft" but "a random female character that happened, for sopme weird reason, to also be named as Lara Croft", I dont see TR 2013 as anything of a Tomb Raider game, I see Rise as "trying a bit" to resemble Tomb Raider gameplay here and there, Shadow tries even more but still, the games this reboot Lara is at diminishes my view of this reboot character as Lara Croft, aside from the looks and emotional state of the character..
(Before someone comes jumping at me, anyone can disagree with me, this is my view and I doubt anyone can change my view of these games and this "female character named Lara Croft", as much as I am no trying to convince anyone, I just gave my opinions and reasons to my opinions)

[almost_a_jill_sandwich]

Ursprungligen skrivet av ParabolaWaVe:

The new Lara Croft was, in contrast, a more feminine, more realistic, more vulnerable take as a female lead. Personally, I don't think I've seen many "vulnerable female leads" in recent action films and games.

this is a really good point. i'd like to see more "vulnerable female leads" as the stars of action movies and games. we know lara croft was based off indiana jones, what about a new indiana jones movie where we talk about his self confidence and have a nice long cry? that would be a blockbuster for sure, hope someone from hollywood is reading this right now!

see how stupid it sounds when you apply it to indiana jones? but because this action star has boobs, she can't just be some bad ass, she has to be a "vulnerable female".

just let lara be a bad ass and find some other female character to ruin

[EF_Neo1st]

Ursprungligen skrivet av almost_a_jill_sandwich:

Ursprungligen skrivet av ParabolaWaVe:

The new Lara Croft was, in contrast, a more feminine, more realistic, more vulnerable take as a female lead. Personally, I don't think I've seen many "vulnerable female leads" in recent action films and games.

this is a really good point. i'd like to see more "vulnerable female leads" as the stars of action movies and games. we know lara croft was based off indiana jones, what about a new indiana jones movie where we talk about his self confidence and have a nice long cry? that would be a blockbuster for sure, hope someone from hollywood is reading this right now!

see how stupid it sounds when you apply it to indiana jones?

It is the same as trying to humanize Doomguy as someone that would be afraid of the dark and demons or making Duke Nuken a normal guy that respects everyone and even more women, or maybe humanize and make a normie out of Ethan Hunt or James Bond because "tthese characteers must connect with the normal male".
Each of these characters are "larger than life" versions of their target audiences respectivelly, destroying that destroys the character into "just a random that dont eeven fit in the narrative other than "writter forcibly made it happen"

[OneDeadLombax]

Lara Croft was made in a time when devs understood that no one who isn't a nerd bitter about Roger Ebert gives a ♥♥♥♥ about "lore" or having "deep" characters in vidya.

They just focused on the character being cool and fun.

Miss those days.

[Kenichip]

Whatever built up on why Lara Croft became iconic game character and idolized by most fans and the Tomb Raider franchise were famous for in the past ...

Was completely destroyed by Reboot 2013 Lara Croft with completely different game elements under the name of Tomb Raider, that personality and characteristic isn't Lara Croft that we known from, and would never become the one that we know and beloved from the past. One doesn't drastically change this much even after experienced bad incidents trauma.

Even Legend Lara still better characteristics than Reboot Lara. So sorry I don't agree being 'humanized' means must give her some vulnerable spots and more feminine. She doesn't need those to become modern female lead characters as she was already in the spotlights and succeed in the 90s.

You said classic Lara isn't very different to the female action hero of all modern entertainment, with somewhat aggressive and masculine attitudes. I would say the Reboot Lara isn't very different to any IRL girl/woman that doesn't have any special about her, it's very bland and being all time ♥♥♥♥♥♥ and whiny that I would definitely stay away from, unless you have the obsession for this.

[ParabolaWaVe]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Kenichip:

Was completely destroyed by Reboot 2013 Lara Croft with completely different game elements under the name of Tomb Raider

Core Design itself was fed up from doing the same game, over and over... and arguably, the players were also tired from playing it. That's why they tried to kill the character for good with the fourth game. Failing that, the next two games switched to a completely different, urban setting. They weren't really about raiding of tombs. If change is a sin, the original creators are as guilty of it as the later devs.

Even the discussion about "old and new" Lara Croft is inaccurate. Because late Core Design Lara is herself a bit different from the Lara in the first games. The first reboot with Crystal Dynamics is again a different Lara. And the second reboot is yet another version. Only difference is this final Lara took creative risks.

And its not like male characters aren't vulnerable or flawed in their own ways. They are, and they should, because that's how proper characters in fiction are written. No matter what people say, the fact is that nobody cares about "perfect" characters... simply because they got no inner conflict, they're predictable, and they're boring as hell.

[OneDeadLombax]

Ursprungligen skrivet av ParabolaWaVe:

Ursprungligen skrivet av Kenichip:

Was completely destroyed by Reboot 2013 Lara Croft with completely different game elements under the name of Tomb Raider

Core Design itself was fed up from doing the same game, over and over... and arguably, the players were also tired from playing it. That's why they tried to kill the character for good with the fourth game. Failing that, the next two games switched to a completely different, urban setting. They weren't really about raiding of tombs. If change is a sin, the original creators are as guilty of it as the later devs.

Even the discussion about "old and new" Lara Croft is inaccurate. Because late Core Design Lara is herself a bit different from the Lara in the first games. The first reboot with Crystal Dynamics is again a different Lara. And the second reboot is yet another version. Only difference is this final Lara took creative risks.

And its not like male characters aren't vulnerable or flawed in their own ways. They are, and they should, because that's how proper characters in fiction are written. No matter what people say, the fact is that nobody cares about "perfect" characters... simply because they got no inner conflict, they're predictable, and they're boring as hell.

Toby Gard was responsible for the creation of Lara and the entire game's concept

He left after the first game because he was dissatisfied with the direction they took the second one in.

[EF_Neo1st]

Ursprungligen skrivet av ParabolaWaVe:

Ursprungligen skrivet av Kenichip:

Was completely destroyed by Reboot 2013 Lara Croft with completely different game elements under the name of Tomb Raider

Core Design itself was fed up from doing the same game, over and over... and arguably, the players were also tired from playing it. That's why they tried to kill the character for good with the fourth game. Failing that, the next two games switched to a completely different, urban setting. They weren't really about raiding of tombs. If change is a sin, the original creators are as guilty of it as the later devs.

Even the discussion about "old and new" Lara Croft is inaccurate. Because late Core Design Lara is herself a bit different from the Lara in the first games. The first reboot with Crystal Dynamics is again a different Lara. And the second reboot is yet another version. Only difference is this final Lara took creative risks.

And its not like male characters aren't vulnerable or flawed in their own ways. They are, and they should, because that's how proper characters in fiction are written. No matter what people say, the fact is that nobody cares about "perfect" characters... simply because they got no inner conflict, they're predictable, and they're boring as hell.

and arguably, the players were also tired from playing it
No we were not, they justs topped making Tomb Raider games.
LAU Tomb Raiders were already "not as Tomb Raider" with highlights of items, where to go and for the same reason "what to do" and became more "parkour challenges with some QTEs here and there".
The fact the community still alive and was still playing the classic TRs from the 90ss says you are wrong, veeeeeeeeeeeeeee....eeeeery wrong by a veeeeeeeee...eeeeeery large margin.
YOU yourself may had been fed up from playing Tomb Raider games, Tomb Raider fans were not and Tomb Raider still sells even with poor advertisement and low budget like this remaster.

What you are saying is:
Hey, players are tired of playing "insert name of the game here", lets change it to "insert completely different game genre here" and call it the same name with barely the same chars just not changing the name and call it a good game everyone wants.
It is the same as "players dont want to play Mortal Kombat anymore but peoplee play auto-chess, lets make a mobile auto-chess game, call it Mortal Kombat and call it a day ("dont you guys have phones?", Diablo Mobile full of crap that dont belong on a Diablo game was well received, dont?)
Because something is successful on a diffferent genre dont mean "trying to milk a franchise into something compleetely different" will work.

I said it at the time, said it more recently and wil say it again.
THEY LOST THE CHANCE to create a brand new franchise, one to rival Uncharted instead of being hidden under its shadow and one that would not be despised by its former fans for not being the game they wanted, also one that would not need to change away from what it innitially was (the reboot was clearly meant to be an Uncharted game and "Uncharted rival", but it slowly changed into "being more Tomb Raider-like" to try to please both fanbases, the fanbase of the Uncharted game and the fanbase of the Tomb Raider game).

You are so wrong, but so wrong, that not only they went changing the new reboot series into more Tomb Raider like but also released the remaster of 3 games they wanted to forget ever existed (because it clearly is not the type of game Crystal Dynamics ever wanted to do or allow to be produced ever again, neither was Square Soft or else they would had not butchered every-single Tomb Raider aspect off at "Tomb Raider" 2013) and guess what, even without advertisement (a few videos on youtube and that is it is not advertisement, even less in comparison to the massive advertisemeent TR 2013 had).. even without advertisemeent it still sold.

YOU were tired from playing it, talk for yourself.