I'm the only one who love Tank Controls?

[Bigboss PC Faster]

?

[Cú/Moon]

Origineel geplaatst door Forgot7en:

Nobody actually "loves" tank controls.
I can't say I even like them

and here it is, I don't like them so I can't possibly conceive of why someone else would.
There's a term for that isn't there?

[webcider]

Origineel geplaatst door Forgot7en:

Nobody actually "loves" tank controls.
Anyone who says they do, they just grew up with them because that's just how many 3D games were played. Anyone born in the 80-90s just got used to them early on. What they actually mean is that they internalized that control scheme to the point it became natural, and even ~20 years later, it still feels natural. I don't love them, I can't say I even like them, but replaying classic TR without them would feel very wrong, and ONLY because I played these games at the time and have replayed them many times over the years. I actually replayed TR2, 3, and 4 to completion just last year (own them on GOG) and I had a lot of fun. Resident Evil 1-3 as well. These games still hold up for me.

But the only reason they're still the preferred way to play these games in this particular is because the Modern control scheme is objectively bad. These games were not designed to be played like this; they'd need a lot more work to function well enough to make the tank control scheme redundant, which I highly doubt will happen even with a patch, but who knows. Maybe the devs care enough?

However.

I have one gripe with the Tank controls scheme because they removed the bindings for strafing, which used to Del and Page Down by default, and it's kind of annoying because I find myself forgetting every few minutes. Holding down Shift to strafe feels strange.

Minor nitpick, they also removed slow rotation (hold left/right and THEN hold Shift to rotate slower) but I call that an improvement; it made no sense to have it in the first place, but IIRC, this weirdness was only present in TR1 and 2.

You know i do have a issue with you trying to tell that no one enjoys tank controls... if you don't like them thats fine.. but to say that no one likes them.. is just plain wrong and i am not talking from a nostalgic experience either... there is something to be said about the neglect of precision platforming that has been lost to analog stick schemes, and while a game like mario 64 feels very fluent, he is controlling very inaccurately on more precise jump tasks. the easiest way to control mario 64 is just to skip the jump challenges all together by performing long jumps all over the place. I personally feel way more in control of my characters movement with tank controls than i do modern controls... because of the inconsistencies of predictable outcomes, i am not going to deny that with focused development a alternative to old school TR Tank controls might be possible. it has yet to be seen that there are a alternative to TR classic tank controls as no one has tried to develop it further after AOD fail. which actually attempted to modernize TR Tank controls.

But yeah in short as a player that only discovered TR back in 2003 i am not blinded by nostalgia, and i know there are other people rediscovering this franchise in 2019 that are for sure not blinded by nostalgia ... so really its just a preference do you want precise controls that makes you feel in control, or do you want the game to play for you and take control away from the player... i prefer to play where i am in control that is what tank controls achieve.

[Forgot7en]

Origineel geplaatst door webcider:

But yeah in short as a player that only discovered TR back in 2003 i am not blinded by nostalgia, and i know there are other people rediscovering this franchise in 2019 that are for sure not blinded by nostalgia ... so really its just a preference do you want precise controls that makes you feel in control, or do you want the game to play for you and take control away from the player... i prefer to play where i am in control that is what tank controls achieve.

Okay, first of all, let's make one thing very clear:
The last game in classic TR was Chronicles, which came out in 2000. Tank controls was still a thing back in 2003; look at Silent Hill 3. Hell, Resident Evil 4 came out in 2005 and still used tank controls. RE5 came out in 2008 and still had tank controls, they just added strafing. Just saying.

Meanwhile, I'm 35 and therefore have unquestionable nostalgia for these games/era, and I'd rather have decent 2D controls instead. Tank controls are needlessly precise by using too many inputs. We CAN have better controls than this that are just as precise, except with fewer and more intuitive mappings. Lara CAN control so much better with Modern controls, but unfortunately, it just wasn't done well enough in this remaster, so Tank controls are unarguably (and unfortunately) the better way to play them.

[Vandal]

I use modern controls with mouse and kb everything else is a mess for me

[webcider]

Origineel geplaatst door Forgot7en:

Origineel geplaatst door webcider:

But yeah in short as a player that only discovered TR back in 2003 i am not blinded by nostalgia, and i know there are other people rediscovering this franchise in 2019 that are for sure not blinded by nostalgia ... so really its just a preference do you want precise controls that makes you feel in control, or do you want the game to play for you and take control away from the player... i prefer to play where i am in control that is what tank controls achieve.

Okay, first of all, let's make one thing very clear:
The last game in classic TR was Chronicles, which came out in 2000. Tank controls was still a thing back in 2003; look at Silent Hill 3. Hell, Resident Evil 4 came out in 2005 and still used tank controls. RE5 came out in 2008 and still had tank controls, they just added strafing. Just saying.

Meanwhile, I'm 35 and therefore have unquestionable nostalgia for these games/era, and I'd rather have decent 2D controls instead. Tank controls are needlessly precise by using too many inputs. We CAN have better controls than this that are just as precise, except with fewer and more intuitive mappings. Lara CAN control so much better with Modern controls, but unfortunately, it just wasn't done well enough in this remaster, so Tank controls are unarguably (and unfortunately) the better way to play them.

We can have better controls for sure, but at what cost? I think that by making the controls feel trivial you lose a lot of the charm of mastering the games. I think 2D has the benefits of being very limited to judgement of sense of spaces so that is to there benefits... However Prince of Persia and Flashback both had this sort of controls in a 2D space and controlled just as "janky" as Tomb Raider does. All i am saying with this is that i still think there is something to be said about Traversal in games, its important the player feels in control and what is done is done because the player did it... all this automation is hurting that feeling.

You might be right about 2003 still having tank controls but it was also the time that Ratchet & Clank - Jak & Daxter came out. so i experienced those games before Tomb Raider classic. as such i should be vomiting about the controls of TR Classic but i adapted and now regard them as some of the industry finest examples of tank controls done well in game design.

[shonasof]

Options are good. I use tank controls and they work excellently. I don't even have to have the camera facing the right way and as long as I know what's right in front of Lara I can still make precise moves and exact jumps.

Some people prefer modern controls, even through the level layouts weren't designed for them. If it works for them, great!

Having the choice is a _good_ thing.

[Forgot7en]

Origineel geplaatst door webcider:

We can have better controls for sure, but at what cost?

This is a ridiculous thing to say; ZERO COST.
You realize that having more intuitive controls means you can play the game more easily, right? There are literally downsides to having better controls.
Never in the history of gaming has someone played a game with good controls and thought they needed to be worse.

I think that by making the controls feel trivial you lose a lot of the charm of mastering the games. I think 2D has the benefits of being very limited to judgement of sense of spaces so that is to there benefits...

Let's travel back in time to the mid-90s when 3D games were still considered brand new. The standard for how games would play the best in 3D wasn't firmly established yet.

If Tomb Raider had had 2D controls like Super Mario 64 (also from 1996) or any other 3D platformer of that era (Conker's, Banjo, Spyro, etc), nobody would've been wishing it had tank controls instead. Consider that Tomb Raider used tank controls but SM64 didn't: why?
I think it's because the N64 controller had an analog stick, while the PS1 and Sega Saturn controllers didn't -- and PC controllers with analog sticks weren't something you (especially as a developer) could take for granted at the time. Games on PC were unarguably designed to be played with first and foremost with keyboard (and mouse) in the 90s. Yes, PC controllers were widely available, but they were not the norm at the time. PC controllers with analog sticks were far more prominent in the 2000s, since by then, every gaming console used them; the keyword here again is "standardization."

Anyway, the PS1 didn't get analog sticks until 1997 and Tomb Raider 2 COULD'VE had 2D controls (similar to other 3D platformers) as it came out the same year. They didn't do that probably because Tomb Raider wasn't just a console series, it was also a PC series, so it was simply more sensible to keep the tank controls. Also it was a sequel, so it was probably seen as a good idea to keep the controls consistent (although they were still tweaked a bit).

So. All that said to respond to your appeal to "charm": no. You're thinking of this from a modern gaming perspective. Tank controls for Tomb Raider simply MADE SENSE AT THE TIME considering all the factors I mentioned. There was no "getting used to the charm of tank controls" in 1996, it was simply "playing a game."

However Prince of Persia and Flashback both had this sort of controls in a 2D space and controlled just as "janky" as Tomb Raider does. All i am saying with this is that i still think there is something to be said about Traversal in games, its important the player feels in control and what is done is done because the player did it... all this automation is hurting that feeling.

Is it possible that it has nothing to do with the fact that they were 2D controls, but the fact that the controls were simply bad compared to other games?
Also,
"automation hurting that feeling"????
???
I have no idea what you're talking about. Turning on Modern controls here doesn't make anything "automatic;" you're getting off-topic and still persisting this "charm" thing that doesn't mean anything.

You might be right about 2003 still having tank controls but it was also the time that Ratchet & Clank - Jak & Daxter came out. so i experienced those games before Tomb Raider classic. as such i should be vomiting about the controls of TR Classic but i adapted and now regard them as some of the industry finest examples of tank controls done well in game design.

You just corroborated the thing I said: you are fine with tank controls because you got used to them at the time -- need I remind you that IT'S BEEN 21 YEARS since 2003? -- which proves that they're outdated; Ratchet and Jak were PS2 games, on a console with analog sticks. Sounds familiar? It should.
You admitted you played those first, so you KNOW those 2D controls were more intuitive, and that going into classic Tomb Raider, you had to GET USED TO tank controls OVER TWENTY YEARS AGO.

Which -- OK, well done for persevering TWENTY YEARS AGO, but getting used to tank controls in 2003 and getting used to them in 2024 is not the same thing and that should be obvious.

But whether or not "charm" applies: this is textbook nostalgia, and therefore, a pointless anecdote; trust me, I was born in 1988.
I'm afraid your opinion on whether tank controls are good or bad is coming entirely from an emotional place, not a logical one.

I'll say this again: "You can get used to bad controls, but that doesn't change the fact that they're bad."
Feel free to replace the word 'bad' with 'janky' or 'counterintuitive' or 'absurd' or 'outdated' but the point remains the same; if your defensive for it is in any way subjective -- and it is, since you used the words 'charm' and 'feeling' -- you are, by default, being strictly nostalgic.

Origineel geplaatst door derrick:

No, it's the only way to play the game.
I tried thrice ow, and I can tell you, anyone thinking adding any other control scheme to these games was just.
It makes it feel and look clunky, than the you'd think the original controls do.

It's actually unplayable, the Modern control scheme is TERRIBLE, and that's the only reason why playing with Tank controls now is the better option.

[Lanzagranadas]

I don't love them, but I have no problem with them if they work with the kind of game that uses them.

I'm not the kind of player who would turn down a game because it doesn't have the controls I might have expected, if those controls have a valid reason to be like that and make sense with the gameplay logic, then I'm fine and will take my time to adapt if necessary.

[Reaperman529]

being from the era when i get play tr when they came out first, i love tank controls. Last year tried to play tr anniversary and others. modern controls are impossible and illogical to me. so if the game doesnt have tank controls i dont play.

[METAL]

Origineel geplaatst door webcider:

Origineel geplaatst door METAL:

100% sure I get jester and laughs for saying this but don't care.

Hate them only in these games. Clunky, slow and unresponsive. No matter with keyboard or controller. And I'm talking of pc versions only since I never owned a ps1 in the day.

No problems with the original resident evil games.
Dino crisis.
Grim fandango.
Silent Hill 2.
(Again, pc only)

Heck, even the terrible pc port of resident evil 4 was better than raider. No, not the HD remaster of 4.

Drakan order of the flame had smoother controls and mouse support.

Now with modern controls, it plays so much better and feels more natural. Besides for the mentioned camera issue.

all these games you mention with tank controls doesn't have a Grid based level design and that seems to be why you do not like the controls... because you seem to not be able to adapt to the fact that Lara has a Charge up before she can jump, which in my mind makes sense since a person would need to charge up to jump longer distance. This is the Cinematic Platformer aspect of the game, now i respect you are able to adapt to Modern Controls and if you are enjoying the game more with modern controls then thats all that matters.
However you just have to realize that the controls are not the problem here... they are not easy to get used to yes but they are not the problem ... many people are able to adapt to it and plays it fine... heck there are even lots of people that do no meds and no loads runs through the entire game... all im trying to say here is that without the way lara controls the level design will not make sense and you would not be able to calculate your next set of movements. And honestly i am doubtful that the developers will be able to fix the camera issues on modern controls in such a old engine, if they do that is great but i doubt it is possible.

wow, i honestly expected a rather disrespectful response.

yes, i enjoy the game much more now. playing 2 now (although so far this title isnt winning me over. had more joy with 1) like with the first level with the great wall. with the tank, it took me like 5 to 10min until i finally reached the top of the wall. with the new controls, im up there in like 30sec. something i dislike about the tank controls is that you have no control over the camera. yes, i know you have the free-look but still like to have full control when i need to jump around.
but i tend to agree that we may not get a fix with the iffy camera for modern controls.

i am fully aware of the block system. yet lara didnt seem to respond when i wanted her to jump. i did take one block back, ran and pressed jump, but no response. had to press the jump 2-3 times until she finally did it.
with the modern controls, you still have to use one block to make a run and jump. only there she is responsive. i rarely miss jumps now.

im glad we have the option to switch between controls. great for people who prefer the tank ones and people like me who feel more comfortable with the other.

[Lanani]

I played these games on PC when they first came out. I remember having to launch TR1 through a DOS command. Tried the new controls for 2 minutes, went "ewww" and immediately switched back to k/m tank controls. The maps were clearly designed for these controls too.

[Korhal]

No. Thanks for asking though.

[Bullseye8841]

Love me some tank controls. As long as the gameplay and camera are designed with them in-mind, there should be no problem.

[jasonbarron]

Not at all. Trying the tank controls again for the first time in well over 20 years has been a rare pleasure, like finding an old beloved coat that you lost years prior and discovering that it still fits perfectly. The tank controls and understanding of geometry forces you to get into an almost zen-like state of concentration that I find exhilarating and soothing in equal measures. For me, the tank controls are "the game" every bit as much as Lara herself is.

[ChikaYami]

I love the tank controls.