Bad Story(Change my mind)

[Burnt Toast]

"Mouthwashing" had a interesting premise but it introduces multiple sensitive topics (Such as rape,murder,suicide) that are repeatedly mishandled.

You sometimes take the perspective of Jimmy who is objectively a HORRIBLE human being (Murdering his crew mates, raping Anya, causing the ship to crash, cannibalizing his best friend, etc.) and the game fails to recognize that or your quite frankly evil action.

Anya is a poorly written character who SHOULD NOT BE THERE. She is not qualified to be on the ship as she struggles with basic medical tasks and refuses to help out in any other meaningful ways. She lacks any real depth to her character and the game tries to guilt us into liking her half-way through the story just because she was raped by Jimmy.
She is the one who introduces the phrase: "Not even our worst moments make us into monsters." which is brought up multiple times throughout the game. It's hard to see any clear coherent message from the story of the game but if THAT is it, it is a terrible message.

Again Jimmy is as evil a human can get. Literally a monster.
From raping Anya and refusing to take responsibility for the child, to causing the crew to be stranded in the 1st place by crashing the ship, to partially cannibalizing his best friend Curly there are few things that could be done to further that character's measure of being "evil".

The game pretends that Jimmy is somehow absolved of his MANY sins because his puts Curly into the crytostasis chamber and then kills himself. None of the crew would have died or been put in jeopardy if it was not for HIS actions.

His suicide is just him once again failing to take responsibility and inflicting further trauma on his friend.

In regards to the mishandling of horrible topics: It is heavily implied that Anya was raped by Jimmy but this isn't really addressed again in the story. Anya is shown to be affectionate and "swoon" over us(Jimmy) a bit after the crash but this doesn't make sense if we raped her and left her a traumatized mess.

Anya's suicide is even addressed in the game. We go into the room where she locked herself in and we aren't even given the option of commenting on her corpse.

Swansea is tied up and executed by us(Jimmy) as we frantically ramble about how we are going to "make things right"

In the end, we ruined EVERYONE's lives and we aren't called out for it. I could go on but you get the gist.

[Grandpa Crack Pipe]

Most people who say "change my mind" will not, in fact, change their mind, for any reason, ever.

[Hyper Realistic Blood]

OP did we experience the same story? I can't begin to change your mind because your reading of the story isn't even surface level.

Maybe you just need to go back, replay it, and reanalyze...really the entire thing, it sounds like.

[Burnt Toast]

Originally posted by Hyper Realistic Blood:

OP did we experience the same story? I can't begin to change your mind because your reading of the story isn't even surface level.

Maybe you just need to go back, replay it, and reanalyze...really the entire thing, it sounds like.

>Erm, EXCUSE ME, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE A MEDIA LITERACY CERTIFICATE

[Burnt Toast]

You can clearly see that I played the game in it's entirety. The events/actions I listed did happen. IDK what you are on about.

[Hyper Realistic Blood]

They happened but like, I don't know how you came to the conclusions you did. Even just the Jimmy stuff is bonkers to me.

Are you SURE the game didn't condemn his actions? Are you really sure the game absolved him? Because the story I witnessed spent a lot of time calling him a coward and a murderer and unfit for the duties he took from Curly. And then he took the coward's way out. He didn't actually do anything to help Daisuke, didn't actually stop Swansea from killing him, and condemned Swansea for killing him. He couldn't even be in the same room when Swansea did it.

The whole point of him going "I can fix this" is that he can't. Everyone's gone sideways and he's not actually capable of fixing things. Part of the point is that he models what it is to be a captain off Curly, except he doesn't actually understand what Curly does, and he doesn't understand that Curly is also not great at fixing problems. He tries to fix Anya locking herself in the hospital, but he's too much of a coward to do it himself. He wastes valuable resources drugging an alcoholic and then doesn't even get into the vent himself, causing Daisuke to get injured.

The whole point of "I don't believe our worse moments make us monsters" is that Anya's lying to herself over what happened to her. Jimmy repeats it because he's also lying to himself. He tries to tell himself that his worst behavior doesn't define him, but he doesn't have good behavior.

I don't really know how to deconstruct what you posted without being harsh about it, because it shows an incredible lack of understanding even the most basic themes of the story. It reads like maybe you were given incorrect sparknotes or something.

You can get defensive and make fun of me if you want, I guess, but I'm honestly confused how you got that out of the game's story. Have you never encountered plot twists or unreliable narrators or villain protagonists that aren't saturday morning cartoon villains, or even characters that're chronically miserable and depressed before?

[Anni]

Did you need a giant banner saying "AND THAT IS BAD" every time a character does something bad to understand what is being communicated?

And to be fair, Anya can't be that incapable as she managed to keep Curly alive in that state for months.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Hyper Realistic Blood:

Have you never encountered plot twists or unreliable narrators or villain protagonists that aren't saturday morning cartoon villains, or even characters that're chronically miserable and depressed before?

Nailed it!

[Meat Man (Alfons)]

You're taking too many things at face value. Jimmy tries to 'take responsibility' for what what happend but ultimately fails to do so by neglecting what he did to Anya in the ID guilt scene. Thats enough to perhaps see that not everything needs to be said for it make sense that the story is saying that in the end he didnt redeem himself at all

[Burnt Toast]

Originally posted by Meat Man (Alfons):

You're taking too many things at face value. Jimmy tries to 'take responsibility' for what what happend but ultimately fails to do so by neglecting what he did to Anya in the ID guilt scene. Thats enough to perhaps see that not everything needs to be said for it make sense that the story is saying that in the end he didnt redeem himself at all

Was he taking responsibility when he shot Swansea in the head("I'm going to fix everything.")
Was he taking responsibility when he cut open Curly's leg and ate his flesh?(Cannibalism)

He is literally a irredeemable monster. From start to finish.

[Burnt Toast]

Originally posted by Hyper Realistic Blood:

They happened but like, I don't know how you came to the conclusions you did. Even just the Jimmy stuff is bonkers to me.

Are you SURE the game didn't condemn his actions? Are you really sure the game absolved him? Because the story I witnessed spent a lot of time calling him a coward and a murderer and unfit for the duties he took from Curly. And then he took the coward's way out. He didn't actually do anything to help Daisuke, didn't actually stop Swansea from killing him, and condemned Swansea for killing him. He couldn't even be in the same room when Swansea did it.

The whole point of him going "I can fix this" is that he can't. Everyone's gone sideways and he's not actually capable of fixing things. Part of the point is that he models what it is to be a captain off Curly, except he doesn't actually understand what Curly does, and he doesn't understand that Curly is also not great at fixing problems. He tries to fix Anya locking herself in the hospital, but he's too much of a coward to do it himself. He wastes valuable resources drugging an alcoholic and then doesn't even get into the vent himself, causing Daisuke to get injured.

The whole point of "I don't believe our worse moments make us monsters" is that Anya's lying to herself over what happened to her. Jimmy repeats it because he's also lying to himself. He tries to tell himself that his worst behavior doesn't define him, but he doesn't have good behavior.

I don't really know how to deconstruct what you posted without being harsh about it, because it shows an incredible lack of understanding even the most basic themes of the story. It reads like maybe you were given incorrect sparknotes or something.

You can get defensive and make fun of me if you want, I guess, but I'm honestly confused how you got that out of the game's story. Have you never encountered plot twists or unreliable narrators or villain protagonists that aren't saturday morning cartoon villains, or even characters that're chronically miserable and depressed before?

From start to finish, there isn't a remotely redeemable aspect of Jimmy.
He crashes the ship on purpose and then proceeds to blame his best friend Curly(who was horrifically mangled because of his actions)
He never acknowledges let alone apologize for raping Anya
He literally cuts off and ate the flesh of his best friend Curly.
He execute Swansea while proclaiming "I'm going to fix everything."
I think a good quote from him that reveals his inner character would be when the crew hears the news about their termination from the company "We're the ones you are trying to escape!" he shouts in regards to Curly. He can't imagine a world where people move on from him. He is a bastard who drags everyone down to him instead of fixing things and rising above.

He has multiple opportunities to make things right but it is only after he has indirectly or directly caused the deaths of everyone aboard that he "shows" remorse and "tries to salvage the situation".

But putting his horrifically crippled and mangled friend in a cryostasis pod in the HOPES that someone will find him in 20 years.

[Burnt Toast]

Originally posted by Anni:

Did you need a giant banner saying "AND THAT IS BAD" every time a character does something bad to understand what is being communicated?

And to be fair, Anya can't be that incapable as she managed to keep Curly alive in that state for months.

Why is she so squeamish in regards to doing her job? Literally every-time we have a interaction with her in regards to her role as the ship's nurse, it's the player(us) having to step up and do her job for her. We have to give swansea his pills. The only time she is shown to do her job on her own is before the crash when she is doing the pysch evals.

[Janni]

Originally posted by Big Chungus:

Originally posted by Anni:

Did you need a giant banner saying "AND THAT IS BAD" every time a character does something bad to understand what is being communicated?

And to be fair, Anya can't be that incapable as she managed to keep Curly alive in that state for months.

Why is she so squeamish in regards to doing her job? Literally every-time we have a interaction with her in regards to her role as the ship's nurse, it's the player(us) having to step up and do her job for her. We have to give swansea his pills. The only time she is shown to do her job on her own is before the crash when she is doing the pysch evals.

Its explained right at the start, she can't do it because of the screams and noises from the captain, and i mean just look at him id also suffer high psychological damage seeing someone close to me suffer like that every day, of course an outlier situation like this is hard for her (not to mention this happened relatively soon after the her talk with the captain so losing another friend must hurt super hard)

The fact that you call her squeamish and show zero empathy towards her situation makes me believe you actually sympathize with jimmy and agree that she is useless.

Only Jimmy could give the captain the pills because hes an absolutely cold blooded monster who in every situation thinks he is right, he didn't feel guilt when while giving him the pills in fact at the beginning it felt like he even saw this as a favourable situation for him. And since he was captain he always was monitoring everyone and boss them around so of course he "had to take responsibility", make it right and shine as the hero.

[Hyper Realistic Blood]

I think I see the problem. You seem to think that because Jimmy is the main character, that the game is telling us he's a good person. Everything you're arguing about why it's a bad story, is the point. The WHOLE POINT of the Take Responsibility thing is that he never does, even when he thinks he is.

You're arguing points that the game already made, as if the game didn't already point it out. You seem to think that because the story is about him and his actions, that he's a hero or even a remotely decent person. All the things you point out about why Jimmy is a bad person, is where the game is saying Jimmy is a bad person. You also seem to think that people that like the story, like Jimmy as a person.

You're agreeing with the game's writing, and then calling it bad writing. There's a whole thread where people are talking about the degrees to which Jimmy is a horrible monster and the ways this game points it out.

Him listening to Swansea's speech, saying "I'll fix it," and then shooting him in the face is not the game saying the problem's fixed, it's the game showing yet another way he dodges taking responsibility for the entire mess.

ALL THOSE THINGS you posted about why Jimmy's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ person, is the entire point of the story. I don't understand how you see these events and think the game is condoning his actions. Everything he does leads to making things worse, even the few things he thinks he does right.

The only time the game pretends Jimmy might not be the villain, is the early game, where you're misdirected into thinking you're playing as Curly when you're crashing the ship, and you don't yet realize the degree to which everyone's screwed.

The ENTIRE POINT is no one had to die at any point. Almost all the events of the game didn't need to happen, but they did, because a bunch of miserable depressed people got trapped in a bad situation and trusted someone who absolutely should not be trusted.

Not every protagonist in every story is the hero, not every story is about how the bad person is right, and not everyone that enjoys these stories thinks the bad person is right.

Just because someone bad died at the end, doesn't mean things were resolved correctly. Just because someone shoots themselves, doesn't mean they're making amends for the terrible things they did.

[Hyper Realistic Blood]

Originally posted by Janni:

Originally posted by Big Chungus:

Why is she so squeamish in regards to doing her job? Literally every-time we have a interaction with her in regards to her role as the ship's nurse, it's the player(us) having to step up and do her job for her. We have to give swansea his pills. The only time she is shown to do her job on her own is before the crash when she is doing the pysch evals.

Its explained right at the start, she can't do it because of the screams and noises from the captain, and i mean just look at him id also suffer high psychological damage seeing someone close to me suffer like that every day, of course an outlier situation like this is hard for her (not to mention this happened relatively soon after the her talk with the captain so losing another friend must hurt super hard)

The fact that you call her squeamish and show zero empathy towards her situation makes me believe you actually sympathize with jimmy and agree that she is useless.

Only Jimmy could give the captain the pills because hes an absolutely cold blooded monster who in every situation thinks he is right, he didn't feel guilt when while giving him the pills in fact at the beginning it felt like he even saw this as a favourable situation for him. And since he was captain he always was monitoring everyone and boss them around so of course he "had to take responsibility", make it right and shine as the hero.

I really like the pills thing because it's one of those little details you don't notice at first, that loops back around to show how horrible Jimmy is. Like aside from him being cold enough to do it.

Very early on in the game, when you still think Curly did it and Jimmy's just trying to get through ♥♥♥♥, Jimmy makes a comment about giving meds to keep Curly quiet. He never once cared if Curly's suffering, and the player will likely feel it's justified since seemingly Curly tried to kill everyone, but he really has no interest in pain management. And then he doubles down on it when he makes a point of no longer calling Curly "Captain".

And then it just gets worse from there. Keeping Curly out of pain is just an unfortunate side effect of keeping him from screaming, in Jimmy's mind.

"I hope this hurts."

[Janni]

Originally posted by Hyper Realistic Blood:

I really like the pills thing because it's one of those little details you don't notice at first, that loops back around to show how horrible Jimmy is. Like aside from him being cold enough to do it.

Very early on in the game, when you still think Curly did it and Jimmy's just trying to get through ♥♥♥♥, Jimmy makes a comment about giving meds to keep Curly quiet. He never once cared if Curly's suffering, and the player will likely feel it's justified since seemingly Curly tried to kill everyone, but he really has no interest in pain management. And then he doubles down on it when he makes a point of no longer calling Curly "Captain".

And then it just gets worse from there. Keeping Curly out of pain is just an unfortunate side effect of keeping him from screaming, in Jimmy's mind.

"I hope this hurts."

Damn i didn't notice that he said that at the beginning, thats really messed up but it also makes even more sense than it already did before.

Of course he'd want to keep the man quiet who knows the truth, really simple when i think about it but very cleverly done and subtle enough, thanks for adding some info to it i really appreciate it!